Reasoning for removal of TP, but not MP?

[Shurrikhan]

because some classes have to be "harder" than others. Why do DPS not really have to worry about enmity generation anymore? [1]Why does it only have to be tanks? [2] Why don't healers get DMG buff traits but BLM does? IT'S NOT FAIR AND I DEMAND EQUALITY!!!!!

[3] So just make 1 class that can wear any armor and use all skills so everyone will be happy. Oh yeah, they did that in FF12 and the majority hated it.

1. You can now hold aggro with auto-attack. This is not hyperbole.

2. They both do. All casters and healers get damage-increasing traits. All physical-based jobs see the buffs only in their raw potency values.

3. This has nothing to do with the changes at play, nor do those changes have anything to do with intentional asymmetry ("some classes" being intentionally "harder than others").

[Semirhage]

It's a trend that I've seen in RPGs over the years, and with my clear magic-user bias, it's not one I'm usually fond of.

Short version is, once upon a time there were spellcasters and non-spellcasters. Spellcasters were largely understood to be more powerful, but harder to play or control. They had very intentional weaknesses that supported this dichotomy: crap armor. Low health. Resource limitations. Difficulty in locating new spells. Weird material components. Feeling useless at low levels. Concentration mechanics. The list goes on.

Things have shifted over time, and now the trend seems to be "make non casters just as powerful and versatile as casters but also don't give them any of those pesky limitations, but casters still keep a bunch of their limitations like mana and mobility issues and interruptible spells". This doesn't necessarily have to be done in a bad way, but again, I'm caster biased. I dislike the idea that I could spend my life in a tower learning to make fire with my hands only to find out I could have just picked up a sword and accomplish basically the same thing, but also have basically none of the drawbacks.

So the end result is, non-casters can just do the same thing as casters except they don't have resource limitations. Because casters being stronger is unfair. So now they're not stronger, they just have these arbitrary limitations that aren't making up for a power difference anymore.

Where it goes from here is up to the game designers. I'm not some ancient grognard waving my fist and saying "mages should be better". What I'm saying is, mages and fighters shouldn't have basically equal output if they're going to have the old restrictions on mages and not add any to fighters.

[GrumbleBeard]

quote

Head-canon class fantasy vs game mechanics. MP for caster dps exists as a mechanic (blm) or res limit. They have effectively infinite MP already. For healers, it exists as a mechanic to balance around free healing abilities, high/low spells, and typically high cost dps spells. TP hasn't had a purpose since HW. Melee dps face different limitations and mechanics during fights as is.

As far as fantasy goes, you may spend ages learning spells, but so do other classes. I'm sure it takes plenty of time to learn to channel chakra through your body properly and thus monks deserve to be able to obliterate Merlins with their bare hands in the same way that you create fire with yours.

[Reimmi]

You are correct of course, but why should a MP class in WHM be forced to use several CDs just to keep his AoE-spamming up, when a TP class can do the same now for free without having to do anything else?

Because not everything needs to be the same.
Please, let's not ruin this game like blizzard did with wow

[Millybonk]

Because not everything needs to be the same.
Please, let's not ruin this game like blizzard did with wow

That's not even an argument you presented which would falsify my point about TP classes now being able to AoE spam, while MP classes still have to manage their resouces.

With Shadowbringers SQ already did large parts to copy WoW: simplifications, removal of choice(SCH losing Selene as a buff pet, now she's just there as a cosmetic), loss of abilities etc.

[Schan]

Things have shifted over time, and now the trend seems to be "make non casters just as powerful and versatile as casters but also don't give them any of those pesky limitations, but casters still keep a bunch of their limitations like mana and mobility issues and interruptible spells". This doesn't necessarily have to be done in a bad way, but again, I'm caster biased. I dislike the idea that I could spend my life in a tower learning to make fire with my hands only to find out I could have just picked up a sword and accomplish basically the same thing, but also have basically none of the drawbacks.

I... *squints eyes* what?
I hope you're comparing magic ranged dps to physical ranged dps because all of that is factually wrong when applied to melees (usually known as the fighters term you used). I understand you're biased but that does not excuse spreading false information.

[ApolloGenX]

That's not even an argument you presented which would falsify my point about TP classes now being able to AoE spam, while MP classes still have to manage their resouces.

With Shadowbringers SQ already did large parts to copy WoW: simplifications, removal of choice(SCH losing Selene as a buff pet, now she's just there as a cosmetic), loss of abilities etc.

Yes, they have simplified and homogenized quite a bit- I wonder why this glaring exception?

[DreameR7g]

Because TP wasn't attached to any sort of defensive abilities or healing/sustaining abilities (except for abilities which actually replenished TP itself, go figure).

MP has its limit purely due to healing/raising/sustaining players. Without such a limit (and enrage timers), it becomes purely a war of attrition. When it comes to the DPS side of MP users, you'll notice that unless you stack spell speed or do abilities outside of damage (Raising with RDM/SMN, VerCure, etc) they do not ever run out. BLM is a fine example of this. Healers get double tapped for this due to A. Having to limit how much they can heal/raise/sustain at any one time to prevent a war of attrition and B. DPSing is stepping out of their main role. Sure, they can DPS but it isn't their main focus.

That's why, in a nutshell, TP was removed and MP was not, why MP has the limiters it has today and TP never really did aside from old school sprint.

[FallenArisen0990]

In all fairness, you could run out of TP back in the 2.0 days but once they change the TP cost somewhere near the end of ARR Patch Cycle, TP pretty much became a UI fluff for Sprint til they removed that.

I still don't see any reasoning why healer AOEs are still on mp. I suppose it would make sense if they came out and said they don't want healers dpsing.

Would you rather have long cooldowns/potencies cut than just simple MP Cost?

[ApolloGenX]

I still don't see any reasoning why healer AOEs are still on mp. I suppose it would make sense if they came out and said they don't want healers dpsing.