Objective Considerations about the new tanks in ShB! Discuss :)

[JohnSeal]

Guys I don’t know how serious you are about what you are saying....TA is the best skill in the ENTIRE game! 10% buff to drop everything you have and ofc rotation focus on burst. TA is better than ice cream, bacon, chocolate spread and French fries for any gamer. At this point let SE stop release Savage raid and Ex trial and let’s all play casual, shall we...

[shao32]

Guys I don’t know how serious you are about what you are saying....TA is the best skill in the ENTIRE game! 10% buff to drop everything you have and ofc rotation focus on burst. TA is better than ice cream, bacon, chocolate spread and French fries for any gamer. At this point let SE stop release Savage raid and Ex trial and let’s all play casual, shall we...

i consider everyone here is pretty serious, TA is a big problem in terms of job sinergy offering extreme bonus to certain jobs while the others don't and get re-designed around that stupid skill you like it or not

[Ignimortis]

Guys I don’t know how serious you are about what you are saying....TA is the best skill in the ENTIRE game! 10% buff to drop everything you have and ofc rotation focus on burst. TA is better than ice cream, bacon, chocolate spread and French fries for any gamer. At this point let SE stop release Savage raid and Ex trial and let’s all play casual, shall we...

I get what you're saying, that Trick Attack requires optimization and thus removing it would be a step towards raids being more casual...but if removing Trick Attack would lead to more complex and enjoyable personal job kits with distinct feel to them, I think most of us would gladly remove TA and say "good riddance". Besides, TA promotes certain gameplay patterns while discouraging other patterns, which means it has a lot of influence, maybe too much, when people decide what fits into the "meta" and what doesn't.

[JohnSeal]

Meta is not requires and you can raid or kill UCOB with or without NIN, still it’s so enjoyable to see TA coming up for every class even healers. For some jobs is more advantageous ok but that’s a coincidence not certainly SE doing it on purpose to give advantages to some jobs in particular. Having a NIN in a party is a plus, like mayo with your chips or whipped cream on the ice cream (yes I am hungry). Btw tried the Drk already multiple time and you can’t “spam” Edge or Flood, the mp regen from weaponskills need a serious boost

[shao32]

Meta is not requires and you can raid or kill UCOB with or without NIN, still it’s so enjoyable to see TA coming up for every class even healers. For some jobs is more advantageous ok but that’s a coincidence not certainly SE doing it on purpose to give advantages to some jobs in particular. Having a NIN in a party is a plus, like mayo with your chips or whipped cream on the ice cream (yes I am hungry). Btw tried the Drk already multiple time and you can’t “spam” Edge or Flood, the mp regen from weaponskills need a serious boost

having a ninja shouldn't be a plus, it should be as equal to bring a SAM/MNK/DRG of equal skill.

[Ignimortis]

Meta is not requires and you can raid or kill UCOB with or without NIN, still it’s so enjoyable to see TA coming up for every class even healers. For some jobs is more advantageous ok but that’s a coincidence not certainly SE doing it on purpose to give advantages to some jobs in particular. Having a NIN in a party is a plus, like mayo with your chips or whipped cream on the ice cream (yes I am hungry). Btw tried the Drk already multiple time and you can’t “spam” Edge or Flood, the mp regen from weaponskills need a serious boost

It's not "spam" per se, it's "just use EoS every time you have enough mana". It's mindless. And yes, meta is not required, but almost every group takes a NIN along these days. Making DRK more burst-oriented and at the same time making their abilities mirror WAR, while stripping away their whole identity of "hit fast, manage MP so you can hit harder when you want it" can either be seen as a fluke or SE acknowledging the meta.

[Kalise]

TA is the best skill in the ENTIRE game!

And that's the problem.

It's too good. Thus it creates negative feedback loops that devolve into crap like making sure that DRK gets a crappy Inner Release clone instead of something actually unique and interesting (You know, like maybe having the Living Shadow provide a bunch of extra sustained DPS?)

10% buff to drop everything you have and ofc rotation focus on burst.

Again, this is a problem.

Since, it really hampers job design. Since EVERYTHING has to be focused around burst. You can't have any form of sustained damage, no everything has to be 10s burst windows. Specifically 10s burst windows. You can't have more than that, because then it won't fit into a TA window.

Burst already has inherent advantages over sustained damage. It deals with target swaps more effectively, it clears trash better, it is less effected by loss of uptime.

Why does it need additional focus in the form of TA being such a massive boost to damage?

At this point let SE stop release Savage raid and Ex trial and let’s all play casual, shall we...

I fail to see the relevance between TA being horrible design and Savage/Ex Trials?

Unless you're implying that TA is required for Savage/Ex Trials? Or that for some reason, the non-existence of TA somehow simplifies the game (Which is actually being simplified because of TA, since it's becoming more and more focused on "Press CD and burst for 5 GCDs" every 60/90s and because of TA that equates to like 30-40% of your entire damage output.

Heck, most other games, these massively potent rDPS CD's are typically once per fight things. Where you co-ordinate much more about maximizing a single burst window during an encounter, and have to figure out the best time to use it (I.e. Which phase you want to get through the fastest). Yet, here in XIV, we have TA being on a shorter CD than most other CD's... Which requires so much co-ordination such as just pressing your own CD whenever its up because half the time it'll coincide with TA...

[JohnSeal]

At this point I am getting mixed feelings from few of you guys. For how I am understanding some are complaining because rotation now are too strict and focus on burst and TA makes things more difficult, well that’s one of the best thing about XIV rotation are strict and you need to optimise your burst phase. Certainly those players can’t play Mch,Brd,Smn,Sch but they can play Blm and Whm, Sam tho.
Others are saying that TA is unfair to have because is too good and other jobs are classified as less useful. So the best solution is to improve other jobs buff and not to remove TA. The real question is why Embolden only buff physical dmg, why Brotherhood only effect physical too. They should make all 90 sec cooldown and buff all kind of dmg. I have been complaining since years of Whm,Blm,Sam not having a raid buff. But if all dps had a similar almost identical 10% kind of buff wouldn’t mean homogenise and make all DDs the same. Equally useful but boring. Still Blm and Sam deal tons more dmg than Nin so they are equally valuable to the party. In this game you can choose your play-stile more than any other MMO. To arrange your performance and rotation with other, adjust and optimise constantly each fight and each run is different.I played other similar game with rotation made of 4/5 skill so depressing.

About the Drk, honesty I hoped for at least a solid 1k mp regen with Blood weapon and with SS, possibly 1.8k with C&S but right now 600 is way to little, need a bit more

[Ignimortis]

At this point I am getting mixed feelings from few of you guys. For how I am understanding some are complaining because rotation now are too strict and focus on burst and TA makes things more difficult, well that’s one of the best thing about XIV rotation are strict and you need to optimise your burst phase. Certainly those players can’t play Mch,Brd,Smn,Sch but they can play Blm and Whm, Sam tho.
Others are saying that TA is unfair to have because is too good and other jobs are classified as less useful. So the best solution is to improve other jobs buff and not to remove TA. The real question is why Embolden only buff physical dmg, why Brotherhood only effect physical too. They should make all 90 sec cooldown and buff all kind of dmg. I have been complaining since years of Whm,Blm,Sam not having a raid buff. But if all dps had a similar almost identical 10% kind of buff wouldn’t mean homogenise and make all DDs the same. Equally useful but boring. Still Blm and Sam deal tons more dmg than Nin so they are equally valuable to the party. In this game you can choose your play-stile more than any other MMO. To arrange your performance and rotation with other, adjust and optimise constantly each fight and each run is different.I played other similar game with rotation made of 4/5 skill so depressing.

About the Drk, honesty I hoped for at least a solid 1k mp regen with Blood weapon and with SS, possibly 1.8k with C&S but right now 600 is way to little, need a bit more

But that's the point. DRK now feels pretty much the same as WAR. You have the same burst window, the same cooldown timers, even the effect on your "burst time" ability is the same - you spam your most powerful move for 10 seconds. Even Darkside gives a +10% damage buff, Storm's Eye (or Path, I keep mixing them up) gives +10% damage buff. Sure, you have TBN and WAR has Raw Intuition... Blood Weapon no longer gives you haste, so you're as slow as a WAR, too. Oh, and Blood Weapon gives you 50 Blood and 3k mana, it's pretty much an Infuriate spread over 10 seconds.

And making everyone into a NIN doesn't solve the burst window problem. You seem to be under the impression that optimizing towards burst windows is the only kind of skillful play there can be, but removing TA can actually give designers space to design jobs that aren't constrained by "gotta have burst to be good for TA".

[Ultimatecalibur]

It's too good. Thus it creates negative feedback loops that devolve into crap like making sure that DRK gets a crappy Inner Release clone instead of something actually unique and interesting (You know, like maybe having the Living Shadow provide a bunch of extra sustained DPS?)

DRK got Delirium+Bloodspiller Spam because of content design needs not because TA exists. Warriors cheesing Phantom Train is a good example of why all 4 tanks need a 10 sec burst window of similar potency.