Objective Considerations about the new tanks in ShB! Discuss :)

[Ignimortis]

Meta is not requires and you can raid or kill UCOB with or without NIN, still it’s so enjoyable to see TA coming up for every class even healers. For some jobs is more advantageous ok but that’s a coincidence not certainly SE doing it on purpose to give advantages to some jobs in particular. Having a NIN in a party is a plus, like mayo with your chips or whipped cream on the ice cream (yes I am hungry). Btw tried the Drk already multiple time and you can’t “spam” Edge or Flood, the mp regen from weaponskills need a serious boost

It's not "spam" per se, it's "just use EoS every time you have enough mana". It's mindless. And yes, meta is not required, but almost every group takes a NIN along these days. Making DRK more burst-oriented and at the same time making their abilities mirror WAR, while stripping away their whole identity of "hit fast, manage MP so you can hit harder when you want it" can either be seen as a fluke or SE acknowledging the meta.

[JohnSeal]

At this point I am getting mixed feelings from few of you guys. For how I am understanding some are complaining because rotation now are too strict and focus on burst and TA makes things more difficult, well that’s one of the best thing about XIV rotation are strict and you need to optimise your burst phase. Certainly those players can’t play Mch,Brd,Smn,Sch but they can play Blm and Whm, Sam tho.
Others are saying that TA is unfair to have because is too good and other jobs are classified as less useful. So the best solution is to improve other jobs buff and not to remove TA. The real question is why Embolden only buff physical dmg, why Brotherhood only effect physical too. They should make all 90 sec cooldown and buff all kind of dmg. I have been complaining since years of Whm,Blm,Sam not having a raid buff. But if all dps had a similar almost identical 10% kind of buff wouldn’t mean homogenise and make all DDs the same. Equally useful but boring. Still Blm and Sam deal tons more dmg than Nin so they are equally valuable to the party. In this game you can choose your play-stile more than any other MMO. To arrange your performance and rotation with other, adjust and optimise constantly each fight and each run is different.I played other similar game with rotation made of 4/5 skill so depressing.

About the Drk, honesty I hoped for at least a solid 1k mp regen with Blood weapon and with SS, possibly 1.8k with C&S but right now 600 is way to little, need a bit more

[Ignimortis]

At this point I am getting mixed feelings from few of you guys. For how I am understanding some are complaining because rotation now are too strict and focus on burst and TA makes things more difficult, well that’s one of the best thing about XIV rotation are strict and you need to optimise your burst phase. Certainly those players can’t play Mch,Brd,Smn,Sch but they can play Blm and Whm, Sam tho.
Others are saying that TA is unfair to have because is too good and other jobs are classified as less useful. So the best solution is to improve other jobs buff and not to remove TA. The real question is why Embolden only buff physical dmg, why Brotherhood only effect physical too. They should make all 90 sec cooldown and buff all kind of dmg. I have been complaining since years of Whm,Blm,Sam not having a raid buff. But if all dps had a similar almost identical 10% kind of buff wouldn’t mean homogenise and make all DDs the same. Equally useful but boring. Still Blm and Sam deal tons more dmg than Nin so they are equally valuable to the party. In this game you can choose your play-stile more than any other MMO. To arrange your performance and rotation with other, adjust and optimise constantly each fight and each run is different.I played other similar game with rotation made of 4/5 skill so depressing.

About the Drk, honesty I hoped for at least a solid 1k mp regen with Blood weapon and with SS, possibly 1.8k with C&S but right now 600 is way to little, need a bit more

But that's the point. DRK now feels pretty much the same as WAR. You have the same burst window, the same cooldown timers, even the effect on your "burst time" ability is the same - you spam your most powerful move for 10 seconds. Even Darkside gives a +10% damage buff, Storm's Eye (or Path, I keep mixing them up) gives +10% damage buff. Sure, you have TBN and WAR has Raw Intuition... Blood Weapon no longer gives you haste, so you're as slow as a WAR, too. Oh, and Blood Weapon gives you 50 Blood and 3k mana, it's pretty much an Infuriate spread over 10 seconds.

And making everyone into a NIN doesn't solve the burst window problem. You seem to be under the impression that optimizing towards burst windows is the only kind of skillful play there can be, but removing TA can actually give designers space to design jobs that aren't constrained by "gotta have burst to be good for TA".

[Anger]

Unless/until Trick Attack is adjusted or the entire meta is shifted away from burst windows, which would require an entire job overhaul - which we just had. Then not having burst will always be detrimental to your jobs position in the meta. WAR synergizes very well with burst windows. This game has a lot of emphasis of dealing large amounts of on demand damage. DPS checks, etc.

The real question you should ask is whether or not you care about meta. It's not needed for 80 - 90% of the games population.

[Kaozurei]

I'd just like to point out that people say bringing a Ninja should be equal to bringing any other melee DPS, however if this was the case then there would be no reason to bring Ninja at all, especially considering the difficulty and vulnerability to high ping Shadowbringers Ninja has. Why play a job that's difficult to play optimally when people can just faceroll on a SAM and contribute just as much to the group? Gotta give them something to gain from how shafted they got both in personal DPS and playstyle with the new expansion.

That said, Only problem I personally have with the tanks is that Gunbreaker seems a bit on the weaker side offensively and defensively and Dark Knight still seems a bit weaker defensively when compared to Paladin and Warrior. If their defensive toolkit (and GNB's offensive tookit) got buffed slightly then they'd all be pretty even IMO.

[JohnSeal]

I mean, melee DD wise they are all different and have a special playstile. Be a Nin is a choice and you choose it because you like the class not for TA. Same for other players that like Monk because of form, stance and position or other that like to jump so they Drg. They are all good and valuable and all increase party dps. If you don’t like any of that, can just play Sam that is fun, flashy and much more straightforward. Sam has no party buff but deal 1-2k more than Nin so they both Equally provide benefits to the raid group, high dps = quicker kill. I personally don’t play melee at high end level, tbh I don’t like positional skills xD
Most of XIV players are happy with burst rooms, I am levelling up a DNC and can’t wait to learn my Flourish 60 sec skill that proc everything at once, Amazing I am ecstatic!! Plus as a Dnc you can stack up fethers for your ogcd skill up to 4 and use them when you want (in burst windows
). Imagine 4 weaposkills proc + 1 FD3 proc+ potentially up to 4 FD1 ocds already prepared and potentially other 2-3 FD3 proc all to sink in a 10sec room, that’s like DDs Heaven ^^

Btw about the tanks 10sec burst windows, I was crunching some numbers rq:
DRK:5BS+ 2EoS+C&S+Plunge+AD = 4850 dps * 10%DA buff ——> 5335
If you add an extra EoS its a bit more

WAR: 1IC + 4FC+ Ons+ Upheaval = 4190 dps + SE 10% buff ——-> 4191 all will crit tho

GNB: SB+ BZ+ BS + GF(continuation) + SC(continuation) + WT(continuation) = 4740 dps + 10sec of No mercy buff 20% ———> 5688 ( you also have another combo and 2 skills can fit in No mercy)

As you see the GNB has nothing less than the other tanks damage wise! War wins only because of crit!

[Fangorn]

Guys, what are your thoughts on best stats and melding? Cant find anywhere else. Maybe missed it. Particularly interested in PLD

[Kaozurei]

Guys, what are your thoughts on best stats and melding? Cant find anywhere else. Maybe missed it. Particularly interested in PLD

Too early to ask about this kind of stuff. Ask again in about a month when the first raid tier's out and more testing's been done to determine optimal party composition and whatnot, maybe there'll be a more accurate answer then.

[Tyrial]

Why is nobody talking about the nightmare that is enmity in any multi tank dungeon if the other tank doesn't want to work with you?

[Bright-Flower]

I can't speak for the other three tanks, but PLD feels a good deal improved. Its single target rotation a little more involved. Gap closer nice for convenience. The buttons we lost were, for the most part, situational or given replacements, and finally we have some real aoe that makes aoe situations a lot more engaging.

Why is nobody talking about the nightmare that is enmity in any multi tank dungeon if the other tank doesn't want to work with you?

Multi tank dungeons? You mean all two of them? Prae and CM are so easy it's really not an issue if tanks fight over agro on trash packs.

If you mean alliance raids I haven't seen any issues there either on trash since 5.0.