Feelings on RDM

[Gallus]

LeoLupus was confused why we would have a 120 potency VAII/VTII with a 120 potency scatter, until we got our impact upgrade.

Thats where the confusion was. It had nothing to do with impact. VAII/VTII don't get upgraded to 120 until level 78.

I recall RDM starting at level 30, so your rotation would be VAII/VTII and...dualcasted VAII/VTII again...or scatter, depending on your mana. I agree though scatter feels a bit pointless.

[Taim_Meich]

It's not so much that but rather that some skills or spells can be so situational that their usage ends up being extremely deceiving. I don't know why but for some reason SE loves to do this occasionally. Things like Dissipation or Tornado Kick are a good example. Yes... you could find them some use, but they felt like they were going so hard against the flow or your own job that it almost hurt to even bind them. Something similiar happens with repraise.
Let me give you an example, you know boss is about to go immune and use repraise before it leaves. Boss comes back, you start DPSing it, you get to 80 80, cast Verflare/Verholy but bang...your group pushed the DPS so hard they forced another downtime before you could land that scorch and the add phase starts. You've just traded a repraise for a Scorch and trolled yourself a good bunch of mana, and you had absolutely no control over the fact this could happen.

The thing is, your example doesn't make any sense. If I weren't capped on mana, I wouldn't reprise the boss before it left. I would only reprise if a) I would cap mana before having manafication ready, b) HEAVY movement situations or c) Fight is about to end (fight, not phase) and I know I won't be able to get to 80|80 before it. But I can't think of a reason to delay my melee combo by using Reprise if I know the boss is going to combe back.

And I'm talking about old, 300 potency Reprise, 220 potency Reprise is only usable in case b)

[Fluffernuff]

i dont see this being brought up, and im not exactly downplaying any of this, because 220 is pretty poor...

but even without all the math behind it, just want to point out something;
E.Combo+holy/flare+scorch= 2270 potency for 80/80 mana
E.Rprise x10- 2200 potency potency for 100/100

sure, thats 5 GCDs and 20 mana difference, but.... how much more potency can we give it before it becomes our only spender? Like whens the realistic cutoff point? I'm not a math dude, so im genuinely curious.
basic division tells me 280-290 potency overtakes the combo at 80/80 mana for total spend mana/potency, with only 2 GCDs difference (a thunder/aero+proc, since scorch replaces jolt). and much more than that makes it more potent than our spells baseline.

....so yeah, im curious. Whats the magic number for us at this point where it's useful for a dump, but not better than the combo we're trying to dump for?

[Taim_Meich]

i dont see this being brought up, and im not exactly downplaying any of this, because 220 is pretty poor...

but even without all the math behind it, just want to point out something;
E.Combo+holy/flare+scorch= 2270 potency for 80/80 mana
E.Rprise x10- 2200 potency potency for 100/100

sure, thats 5 GCDs and 20 mana difference, but.... how much more potency can we give it before it becomes our only spender? Like whens the realistic cutoff point? I'm not a math dude, so im genuinely curious.
basic division tells me 280-290 potency overtakes the combo at 80/80 mana for total spend mana/potency, with only 2 GCDs difference (a thunder/aero+proc, since scorch replaces jolt). and much more than that makes it more potent than our spells baseline.

....so yeah, im curious. Whats the magic number for us at this point where it's useful for a dump, but not better than the combo we're trying to dump for?

You forgot the time it takes for each one to complete:
- The whole combo takes 1.5 + 1.5 + 2.2 + 2.5 + 2.5 = 10.2 seconds, which gives a potency per second (PPS) of 222.5
- Meanwhile, E. Reprise x10 takes 2.2x10 = 22 seconds to complete, which means a PPS of only 100.

Enchanted Reprise is less than half the PPS of the combo! So, in order to match the PPS of the combo, Enchanted Reprise would need to have a potency of about 490. Mind you, we don't want nor need such high potency. We only need a potency enough that it ISN'T a DPS loss when using it to align our melee combo by correcting small overflows of mana.

[Gallus]

The thing is, your example doesn't make any sense. If I weren't capped on mana, I wouldn't reprise the boss before it left. I would only reprise if a) I would cap mana before having manafication ready, b) HEAVY movement situations or c) Fight is about to end (fight, not phase) and I know I won't be able to get to 80|80 before it. But I can't think of a reason to delay my melee combo by using Reprise if I know the boss is going to combe back.

And I'm talking about old, 300 potency Reprise, 220 potency Reprise is only usable in case b)

Your A scenario looks fine, but isn't bound to happen very often and the DPS gain will be laughable (Hissatsu Seigan levels of laughable dps gain). In your B scenario you can probably achieve better results with a swiftcasted VA/VT. Your C scenario is Tornado Kick levels of situational and usefulness.
Perhaps not entirely useless, but getting excited over a skill like this?

[Fluffernuff]

Thats mainly what im asking. at 490, it would invalidate alot of stuff too. like at what point does it become useful and not too much? its just kinda weird because the cost is low and its not part of a combo.

but yeah, thanks for the further dump there. I just read guides and try to take the mentality and trust that y'all did the math right the first time so that stuff isnt wrong :P


i guess by design a "fix this problem" button is going to be kinda wonky

[Zyneste]

Thats mainly what im asking. at 490, it would invalidate alot of stuff too. like at what point does it become useful and not too much? its just kinda weird because the cost is low and its not part of a combo.

but yeah, thanks for the further dump there. I just read guides and try to take the mentality and trust that y'all did the math right the first time so that stuff isnt wrong :P


i guess by design a "fix this problem" button is going to be kinda wonky

We want Reprise to be equal to the DPS of Jolt -> VerAero/Thunder in PPS.

Assuming that mana is worth 7-9 Potency each, (well say 8) it would be 139 PPS (JII->VA/VT.)

Adjust that to the recast of 2.2 seconds for reprise and you get 305.

305ish is what it would take to make Reprise fairly DPS nuetral. Its the same DPS as if you were just spamming JII-> VA/VT and never going into melee combo, but still accounting for the mana as if you hadn't wasted the mana entirely. 305 is fairly close to 300.

[Turing]

Thats mainly what im asking. at 490, it would invalidate alot of stuff too. like at what point does it become useful and not too much?

The answer may surprise you! In fact, as things are and assuming a 2.45 GCD (what we'll have in AF4), Reprise could be as low as 260, as high as 430. At those points and anywhere inbetween, it is valuable to use (stronger than casting) while being a loss compared to the melee combo (gains less damage per mana point over the same period). There are other ways they could buff Reprise, of course, such as decreasing its cost or increasing its speed, but in terms of potency there is actually quite a wide range.

[Taim_Meich]

The answer may surprise you! In fact, as things are and assuming a 2.45 GCD (what we'll have in AF4), Reprise could be as low as 260, as high as 430. At those points and anywhere inbetween, it is valuable to use (stronger than casting) while being a loss compared to the melee combo (gains less damage per mana point over the same period). There are other ways they could buff Reprise, of course, such as decreasing its cost or increasing its speed, but in terms of potency there is actually quite a wide range.

Can you expand on that? Is the 260 potency floor valuable in only select situations, and the 460 ceiling valuable in all situations, and the potencies in between being different amounts of usable situations?

[Zyneste]

Can you expand on that? Is the 260 potency floor valuable in only select situations, and the 460 ceiling valuable in all situations, and the potencies in between being different amounts of usable situations?

260 is probably 270 from stone on a 2.45 sec GCD. 310 from Aero on a 2.45 sec GCD totaling 110 + 126 = 236. 236/2 = 118. Adjusted for 2.2 recast is 260. This low doesn't account for the actual mana spent and is the same DPS wise as overcapping your mana, but allowing mobility.