Going to the same route as WoW. The game is TOO easy

[Shurrikhan]

Speaking from my own personal experience, 90% of my guild quit because Cata Heroic dungeons were harder than WotLK raids and the gear rewards for those super hard dungeons were disproportionate to the difficulty involved. On top of that, starter Cata raids were on par with WotLK hard modes. The leap in difficulty was simply insane. I stuck it out and eventually cleared all the Heroic raids in Cata, but I was completely burned out by the end of that expansion. It felt to me like the community never recovered. WoW went from being a relaxing game that I played at the end of my work day to being a second job. Successful raiding guilds became mini-corporations, complete with job interviews, performance quotas, and difficult hiring/firing decisions. That doesn't make for a compelling game. I want to have fun with my friends in a game, not raid successfully with my co-workers.

They tried to overcorrect by adding LFR "for the casuals," but 25-man content simply isn't conducive to building bonds between guild-mates. The current Mythic+ system suffers from the same problems that plagued Cata: the timer requires that you exclude under-performers. You can't play with who you want. Instead, you have to find the best co-workers available to you and work with them. Again, I want to play a game at the end of my work day, not maintain a second job.

Ahh, I guess my friends must have been a little more on the midcore side or above going from WotLK to Cata because they loved Cata heroics. I did as well.

Nonetheless, I don't think its difficulty came down to a sweeping HP and/or "deadliness factor" buff across all mobs so much as a failure to rein in very specific mob effects when scaling up and how those changes forced awareness and decisive counterpoint. This left a much more punctuated difficulty that then felt quite manageable to very skilled players while seeming both unintuitive and overwhelming to less skilled players. Where a skilled player might look at the damage intake and immediately takes up a kiting pattern, that degree of adaptibility just wasn't available to many an average player. And given some of the weirdness that went on there, with certain mobs scaling far more rampantly than others from Normal to Heroic by nature of their skills, I always that as a failure to polish quite enough, since difficulty as a result of damage intake or output required isn't... linearly perceived(?) (if there could even be such a thing), especially once the floor has already been raised significantly.

The last point about Mythic+, though, is one I hope XIV will learn from. I like Mythic+ as an efficiently designed reiterative system, but it is far from perfect (or all that interesting fleshed out in terms of rewards), and in this case I would the failing you describe, for instance, comes from only ever trying to suit its needs for general grinding and gear progression simultaneously.

Let me exemplify. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to take an underperforming player to content in which they would otherwise drown without (1) risk of failure or (2) making the difficulty excessively low for myself as well if there isn't anything about the content that would specifically require, somehow, that my lowest DPS be nearish the highest in party (e.g. by split-party mechanics or whatever or tight DPS checks). Though, if it's really just about grinding, and it isn't that much less efficient to just step down a level in difficulty, it's almost a bit irrelevant; the only true solution at that point is to have dynamic mechanics also tied into the difficulty level and to target those mechanics at specific players based on their individual difficulty levels selected, so to speak.

That said, it makes no sense to then treat gear progression as if it were mere grinding. That certainly doesn't happen in raids, so why should someone who can't beat the fights in X time at Y difficulty (the equivalent of clearing any boss Y in a raid, we might say) be rewarded with that same loot? Removing the Mythic+ timer would be the equivalent of removing every enrage from raids and making the excess time purely a point of vanity. I can't take Dyslexic Joe to the Linguomancer raid fight. It may suck, but that's just the fact of it. Why would I expect any different, then, from something that provides the same quality of loot, even if based on a dungeon model?

I'd thought a lot about a reiterative system very specific to XIV that gives more control over the elements of difficulty added by dividing up the different types of difficulty that may be added to a dungeon by Element, collecting and deploying TT Cards for optional bonus fights a la Necromimicon, and using player-based difficulty levels (an idea partly borrowed from 1.x, and partly from multiplayer Rogue-likes) in the form of Blessings/Challenges, with slightly different workings between premade and matched parties -- the general idea being to give a more interesting and player-directed reward structure via Relic Armor (aka Regalia) and the gathering of Element as an analog reward structure punctuated by progressing tiers therein for interesting materia effects, preferably while allowing greater skill gaps within any given party without creating conflict for that party's workings.

[Ronduwil]

That said, it makes no sense to then treat gear progression as if it were mere grinding. That certainly doesn't happen in raids, so why should someone who can't beat the fights in X time at Y difficulty (the equivalent of clearing any boss Y in a raid, we might say) be rewarded with that same loot?

Because at the end of the day, they beat the boss! That is, after all why you're going in there. To kill a boss and take his stuff. Putting an arbitrary expiration date on it makes no sense.

Removing the Mythic+ timer would be the equivalent of removing every enrage from raids and making the excess time purely a point of vanity. I can't take Dyslexic Joe to the Linguomancer raid fight. It may suck, but that's just the fact of it. Why would I expect any different, then, from something that provides the same quality of loot, even if based on a dungeon model?

That's my point: enrage mechanics, like arbitrary completion timers, are stupid! I know that a portion of the population gets a kick out of them, but they are anti-fun from my perspective. Why does everything have to be a freaking speed run? If everyone is at full health, the healers are still at full mana, and the boss is almost dead, why should the raid be arbitrarily forced to wipe? It makes no sense with regards to immersion, and it completely excludes the majority of players who are playing games simply for fun. I can see enrage timers as occasional gimmicks, but their pervasiveness is a symptom of lazy game design. When designers can't think of a creative challenge for a given fight, they fall back on enrage timers and arbitrary completion timers. I don't want to play a game if i can't play with friends who typically multi-task during gaming sessions out of necessity. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

[Adrestia]

Because at the end of the day, they beat the boss! That is, after all why you're going in there. To kill a boss and take his stuff. Putting an arbitrary expiration date on it makes no sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rij_...&feature=share

[ForteNightshade]

That's my point: enrage mechanics, like arbitrary completion timers, are stupid! I know that a portion of the population gets a kick out of them, but they are anti-fun from my perspective. Why does everything have to be a freaking speed run? If everyone is at full health, the healers are still at full mana, and the boss is almost dead, why should the raid be arbitrarily forced to wipe? It makes no sense with regards to immersion, and it completely excludes the majority of players who are playing games simply for fun. I can see enrage timers as occasional gimmicks, but their pervasiveness is a symptom of lazy game design. When designers can't think of a creative challenge for a given fight, they fall back on enrage timers and arbitrary completion timers. I don't want to play a game if i can't play with friends who typically multi-task during gaming sessions out of necessity. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

Because without enrages, every single encounter becomes a war of attrition. Just keep throwing bodies at the boss until it dies. You only ever need a healer and/or Caster (sans BLM) alive to keep going. This absolves any responsibility from damage dealers. In fact, you could literally just bring all four tanks, all three healers and a RDM to practically guarantee you'll see every mechanic within the first 30 minutes. Why bring a DRG when a WAR can survive half the mechanics bosses do? I'm sorry but if you can't focus on a fight for 5-10 minutes because of other obligations, then don't queue into the content to begin with. Normal modes and 24 mans are a mess because there is zero incentive for players to improve outside self motivation. As stated above, so long as someone's alive to raise people, it doesn't matter how many times you die.

If anything, I want enrages for the easier content so people are held somewhat accountable. They aren't about speed killing, but telling you to stop making mistakes and "git gud."

[Ronduwil]

Because without enrages, every single encounter becomes a war of attrition. Just keep throwing bodies at the boss until it dies. You only ever need a healer and/or Caster (sans BLM) alive to keep going. This absolves any responsibility from damage dealers. In fact, you could literally just bring all four tanks, all three healers and a RDM to practically guarantee you'll see every mechanic within the first 30 minutes. Why bring a DRG when a WAR can survive half the mechanics bosses do? I'm sorry but if you can't focus on a fight for 5-10 minutes because of other obligations, then don't queue into the content to begin with. Normal modes and 24 mans are a mess because there is zero incentive for players to improve outside self motivation. As stated above, so long as someone's alive to raise people, it doesn't matter how many times you die.

You can have mechanics to prevent this that aren't simply arbitrary enrage timers. For example, every time a player dies, the boss gains a damage buff. Or the boss periodically launches an attack that has to be soaked raid-wide. As players die, the others will naturally have to step it up.

If anything, I want enrages for the easier content so people are held somewhat accountable. They aren't about speed killing, but telling you to stop making mistakes and "git gud."

Why? Why do you want to hold someone "accountable" for not devoting as much time to the game as you do? Worse, why do you want to punish yourself because your friends aren't as dedicated to a video game as you are? I don't understand this mentality. I like getting good at the game for its own sake. I like the opportunity to exhibit my competence by carrying my friends through content. I think that's much more fun than trying my best and still failing because my buddy just wasn't good enough.

[Eli85]

Why? Why do you want to hold someone "accountable" for not devoting as much time to the game as you do? Worse, why do you want to punish yourself because your friends aren't as dedicated to a video game as you are? I don't understand this mentality. I like getting good at the game for its own sake. I like the opportunity to exhibit my competence by carrying my friends through content. I think that's much more fun than trying my best and still failing because my buddy just wasn't good enough.

Doing respectable DPS for anything short of Ultimate raids really does not require significant time devotion. At all. The people who can't do respectable DPS are either afk or only using one spell or only auto attacking or something equally as troll worthy. It would be really nice to weed out these players early, which improves the game for everyone.

[Melichoir]

Doing respectable DPS for anything short of Ultimate raids really does not require significant time devotion. At all. The people who can't do respectable DPS are either afk or only using one spell or only auto attacking or something equally as troll worthy. It would be really nice to weed out these players early, which improves the game for everyone.

I pretty much agree with this. Ive seen people in 390 gear averages pulling subpar dps. This is an issue where people are literally coasting through content. When you can have a Sam in 360 gear do more dps than a BLM in 390 gear where the BLM has better uptime on the boss, thats an issue. Yes, enrages should happen at lower levels to force even average players to put in the effort. No one is gonna realistically argue that you need to have perfect rotations and pulling 7k+ DPS on expert roulette, but you should see people doing moderate amounts of dps in the 4.5-5.5k range. That kind of damage isnt hard to get. It just takes people to have a basic understanding of their skills and doing decent rotations. Thats it.

It doesnt require elite haxx0rz skills to take 10 minutes and read your skills and think "Hmm, Ill probably do more DPS if I keep my buffs on, hit my positionals, and not overcap on resources."

[Crystal_Raven]

I pretty much agree with this. Ive seen people in 390 gear averages pulling subpar dps. This is an issue where people are literally coasting through content. When you can have a Sam in 360 gear do more dps than a BLM in 390 gear where the BLM has better uptime on the boss, thats an issue. Yes, enrages should happen at lower levels to force even average players to put in the effort. No one is gonna realistically argue that you need to have perfect rotations and pulling 7k+ DPS on expert roulette, but you should see people doing moderate amounts of dps in the 4.5-5.5k range. That kind of damage isnt hard to get. It just takes people to have a basic understanding of their skills and doing decent rotations. Thats it.

It doesnt require elite haxx0rz skills to take 10 minutes and read your skills and think "Hmm, Ill probably do more DPS if I keep my buffs on, hit my positionals, and not overcap on resources."

Unsure if you are aware but in FF14 expecting people to have a basic understanding of their class and skills along with an alright rotation is elitism.

[Ronduwil]

Doing respectable DPS for anything short of Ultimate raids really does not require significant time devotion. At all. The people who can't do respectable DPS are either afk or only using one spell or only auto attacking or something equally as troll worthy. It would be really nice to weed out these players early, which improves the game for everyone.

I'm in no position to speak to how raiding is in this game, but in my WoW experience, rotation isn't the issue for beating the raid timer. The issue is maintaining your rotation while also dealing with boss mechanics. Also, respectable DPS isn't enough to take down WoW bosses on the Heroic/Mythic level. Everyone's execution has to be flawless. That means everyone pops their cool downs at key times, no one falls prey to an instant-kill mechanic, and everyone's latency is spot on. As for weeding out players improving the game for everyone, I completely disagree. Weeding out players is a good way to kill your game. This is why this game's sub numbers are on the rise while WoW's are still in decline. They were extremely successful at weeding out their reasonable players. Now all that's left are ultra casual collectors and hardcore raiders with no game to speak of in between those two extremes.

To be clear, I'm not saying that hard content and challenges shouldn't exist for the hardcore. I'm just saying that they shouldn't come at the expense of widely accessible content. The title of the thread is flawed because WoW isn't really easy. The problem is that there's super-casual content and extremely hardcore content with nothing in between. The super hard content is still there for those that want it. The problem isn't that the super easy content exists. Super easy content always existed. The difference now is that there are no incentives to do the mid-level group content because you can't get anything out of it that you couldn't get faster out of the super easy solo content. While I agree that the WoW model should be emulated, I don't agree that WoW is "too easy." It just doesn't offer compelling mid-level group content. As long as this game continues to provide that, I think it'll be fine.

[whiskeybravo]

Why? Why do you want to hold someone "accountable" for not devoting as much time to the game as you do? Worse, why do you want to punish yourself because your friends aren't as dedicated to a video game as you are? I don't understand this mentality. I like getting good at the game for its own sake. I like the opportunity to exhibit my competence by carrying my friends through content. I think that's much more fun than trying my best and still failing because my buddy just wasn't good enough.

Because it's an online, co-operative game, not a single player in which you can stop and smell every rose. You don't need to spend anymore time looking up a guide than you spend wasting it because you don't know what you are doing. And furthermore, in what reality is not holding someone accountable beneficial to progress?

Accountability doesn't mean punishment. It means accepting your responsibility, along with your limitations, and working to improve. Anything less is lack of respect for those around you.