Let's talk about Holmgang, is it stronger, as strong, or...

[Anger]

I personally think Hallowed Ground should be on a 6 minute cooldown instead of 7.

[Lyth]

...

If you can mitigate tankbusters with your on-demand cooldown alone, then the fight is trivial. That may end up being the case. If the fights are appropriately tuned, however, you'd need your on-demand to mitigate cleaves, and some degree of cooldown stacking should be required to survive tankbusters. Either way, if the argument "you don't need to use invulns" actually holds, they should just remove them from the game. There's no point keeping abilities that we don't use.

Duration is important, but not nearly as important as recast. To use your own example, O8S has two UE/Hyperdrive sets. But they're less than five minutes apart. So this only applies to one instance in the fight. Meanwhile, Holmgang can be used to solo three out of five UEs, which are meant to be shared tankbusters. What do you think gives you the bigger cooldown savings for your team? Hmm?

I do think it's reasonable for Holmgang to have a longer duration (i.e. 8-10 seconds). But the recast should definitely be increased to 6+ minutes.

You have my sympathies, though, if your team considered your dps contribution to be so expendable that you got told to sit in the corner and soak Pantokrator. That's pretty rough. But hey, in Shadowbringers, you can do that on WAR too.

[Canadane]

One of the reason Holmgang is/was heavily utilized, is the fact that WAR is 'lacking' in 'damage' mitigation skills.

They have one of the best on-demand defensive skills that's basically always available, Inner Beast.
But not like anyone uses Defiance, so I'll give you that much.


I don't think anything should be done to Holmgang, it's good but not too good.
I think the Gunbreaker skill should have it's cooldown to match Holmgang though.

[Canadane]

If you can mitigate tankbusters with your on-demand cooldown alone, then the fight is trivial.

This does describe every fight so far, to be fair.

[Hierro]

This does describe every fight so far, to be fair.

For WAR, maybe,and that's only because you're forced to use tank stance and have extra padding from more HP. However, I triple-dog-dare you to survive O10S tankbusters with the other tanks' on-demand, no tank stance, no echo, final destination.

Duration is important, but not nearly as important as recast. To use your own example, O8S has two UE/Hyperdrive sets. But they're less than five minutes apart. So this only applies to one instance in the fight. Meanwhile, Holmgang can be used to solo three out of five UEs, which are meant to be shared tankbusters. What do you think gives you the bigger cooldown savings for your team? Hmm?

There's a reason duration matters.For O8S, You could pre-empetively pop LD sometime after 2:38's ultima, then purposely take future/past and the following auto to trigger another 10 seconds of walking dead. You would then take UE while in walking dead, then get healed up for the rest. Tanking the following hyper was of little consequence cause you know, DRK mystical powers and all. Voila, you've manipulated the recast time to take the 4th embrace without any assistance.

So, while there are two embraces that are less than 5 minutes apart, you can still take both with living dead if you were creative enough.

[Lyth]

Launched's argument is that WAR is at a duration disadvantage because a PLD or DRK can mitigate both UE and Hyperdrive with a single invuln. Your mitigation strategy doesn't really have anything to do with that claim.

There are two cases where UE is directly followed by Hyperdrive. The first is at 2:56, and the second is at 5:17. You're not mitigating both of these sets with an invuln on the same tank. In fact, if you try to mitigate the second set with an invuln, it's going to come at the cost of only mitigating one UE with an invuln on that tank instead of two (the last UE is at 9:12). So this complaint of Holmgang being 6 second duration as opposed to 10 seconds only really applies to one instance in the fight (which your co-tank has covered anyways).

PLD and DRK each can mitigate two UEs, one of which can be the first UE/Hyperdrive combo. WAR can mitigate three. There is no invuln benefit to running PLD/DRK. Shorter recast pretty much always trumps longer duration. Especially when you cross that magical value of being half the recast of another tank's invuln. Because Holmgang is 3 minutes to SB's 6-7 minutes (whatever they end up deciding on) and Hallowed's 7 minutes, you're always going to get double the amount of uses on WAR.

Another point worth noting: there are five UEs in the entire fight. Your PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR combo is potentially using invulns on four out of the five of these shared tankbusters. That should illustrate a core problem with invulnerabilities as they stand. They're much too readily available.