Let's talk about Holmgang, is it stronger, as strong, or...

[mosaicex]

Since we've finally got 4th tank (Gunbreaker), it also means we've finally got the 4th super (death) mitigation cooldown (Superbolide), which has sparked some debates within the community regarding its strength.
But for this thread, I want to mostly talk about Holmgang.

I think most people would agree that Holmgang is indeed one of the strongest tank ability in this game, due to its low cooldown and death prevention effect, and has been utilized to great affect from ARR to Stormblood.

One of the reason Holmgang is/was heavily utilized, is the fact that WAR is 'lacking' in 'damage' mitigation skills. Their tank stance doesn't actually mitigate damage (not that most people use it anyway), in ARR and HW, WAR didn't have Rampart's equivalent (Foresight was very weak due to its scaling and being physical only), in SB, it still doesn't have short CD mitigation skill like Sheltron or TBN. So instead of just mitigating damage, they simply just mitigated dead using Holmgang, and Holmgang short cooldown compared to other tank's played large role in this. Of course Vengeance's low cooldown also help (but that's also being adjusted in 5.0).

But now that we've reached the 3rd expansion I think everyone has noticed a very strong attempt from SE at 'standardizing' (or homogenizing, as some people would like to call it) tank's toolkit.

Every tank now also has what I consider micro damage mitigation skill (Sheltron, The Blackest Night, Heart of Stone, and re-designed Raw Intuition)

Every tank now has passive 20% mitigation from Tank Mastery trait.

Warrior is no longer lacking in this regard.

So I would like to ask, should Holmgang retain its 180 seconds cooldown?



The cooldown itself aside, will it see as frequent utilization as in previous expansions? Is it actually STILL as strong?
Not mitigating the damage mean the healers 'might' have to heal more.
And now that WAR has more actual damage mitigation, will it still be used as often?

SE themselves can also design encounter to circumvent Holmgang strength (but not LD, Superbolide, and Hallowed) by making a chain tankbuster (such as 3rd Ahk Morn and onward in T13, Hyperdrive and Ultimate Embrace wombo combo in O8S, or cursekeeper in Seriyuu EX, where simply just mitigating dead isn't enough (just a general idea since the tankbuster itself comes after)).

What do tank players think?
What do WAR mains think?

SHOULD there be anything done about Holmgang?
WHAT should be done with it?

[NyneSwordz]

I dunno. I felt that Wars had plenty of "damage mitigation skills" in Stormblood, and while tank stance didn't mitigate damage, it increased healing by 20% - which is basically the same thing. At any rate...

I think the better question is, is the duration of the immunity action worth the higher recast time?

Holmgang only lasts 6 seconds. Living Dead lasts 10. 6/10 X 300 = 180. So... obviously the developers think so...

I don't know if this really plays out in practice.

But if you look at Superbolide, lol, it is basically Living Dead but with a shorter duration but with the SAME cooldown.

With Living Dead the Dark dies if he isn't healed 100%.

But is SuperBolide reducing HP to 1 really any different? Gunbreaker gonna die if you don't heal him just like a Dark. And do healers really have a problem topping off a tank after a tank buster? If they do, it's more a healer problem than a problem with the tank's immunity action. And although Holmgang doesn't reduce your hp to 0, you would only ever use it when you expect your hp to be reduced to zero---so in that sense it's not any different either.


But... Hallowed Ground IS different because it just plain makes you immune. Is that worth the extra 2 minutes of cooldown compared to Living Dead? Depends I guess. Pld could use it well before the tank buster, and if timed right, take it while he's at full health, eliminating the need for healers to top him off. Which frees up the healer and which, because he's at full health and totally immune, may allow for some cheating of mechanics maybe? I dunno.

Holmgang versus everything else, I can see some kind of logic to it - but I question if that logic plays out in practice. Hallowed Ground may be okay because Pld is totally immune. Living Dead seems kinda weak because the extra long duration doesn't seem to be worth having a proportionately longer cooldown than Holmgang. But SuperBolide has to be the worst of the four - at least on paper. In practice it probably is as good (or bad depending on how you look at it) as Living Dead.

But eh... on the whole... probably doesn't make much of a difference in clearing content...

But I guess if it bothers people so much, they could increase Holmgang cooldown to 5 minutes, and increase it's duration to 10 seconds - then functionally, it'll be same as Living Dead.

Or they could decrease the healing requirement and duration of Living Dead by 40% and decrease its cooldown to 3 minutes. Of course this would make it even better than SuperBolide than it already is...

As for SuperBolide, I'd just increase the duration to 10 seconds and make it the same as Living Dead. Or... you could decrease the cooldown by 20% to match the proportion of its duration to Living Dead's duration. But since duration is not as valuable as cooldown, this would effectively make SuperBolide better than Living Dead. So I dunno... this change could really trigger Darks and make them even more emo than they already are...

Sooooo....

I like your idea of changing the mechanics of the fight to value duration more than cooldown... and I'm totally okay with it. They can tune it so it's doable with a War if that War has perfect timing, and easier with everyone else. And this would be fine. I guess it depends on how they tune it. If it's too hard on a War to do it, or if it's practically impossible with lag and stuff, then you can really see some backlash to a fight having a mechanic that effectively bars a job...

This is a hard one. I don't know what they're gonna do. Probably keep it as is imo for fear of making it worse.

[Freyyy]

But is SuperBolide reducing HP to 1 really any different? Gunbreaker gonna die if you don't heal him just like a Dark. And do healers really have a problem topping off a tank after a tank buster? If they do, it's more a healer problem than a problem with the tank's immunity action. And although Holmgang doesn't reduce your hp to 0, you would only ever use it when you expect your hp to be reduced to zero---so in that sense it's not any different either.

I think that there's a big misunderstanding regarding Superbolide right there. Don't forget that it makes you impervious to most attacks, it doesn't just prevent your HP from going below 1 like Holm and LD. Superbolide is way closer to HG than any other invuln. When you use LD or Holmgang you're still taking damage, you just can't die. So if you get healed during their durations, then get hit again, you'll lose the HP you just got back. With Superbolide, since you're impervious to most attacks, you can get slowly healed during its 8sec duration and you won't lose any of these HP even if you get hit before the effect ends. Considering you have Aurora and Brutal Shell, it'll require less healing than any invuln besides HG. A WAR needs to be healed enough so that it survives the next auto attack right after Holmgang ends. Since he's still taking damage during the 6sec duration, you'll need to get some form of quick burst healing. A DRK will need to be healed for the amount equaling its maximum HP, so it requires a ton of healing in less than 10sec to prevent him from dying. A PLD won't need any healing, and a GNB will probably just need some regen ticks + its own self healing capabilities. It makes a big difference.

With that said, if Holmgang remains as a 3min CD only, it'll still outshine every other invuln. It trivializes too much tank busters on a tank that already has the most personal mitigation. It's bonkers.

[NyneSwordz]

I think that there's a big misunderstanding regarding Superbolide right there. Don't forget that it makes you impervious to most attacks, it doesn't just prevent your HP from going below 1 like Holm and LD. Superbolide is way closer to HG than any other invuln. When you use LD or Holmgang you're still taking damage, you just can't die. So if you get healed during their durations, then get hit again, you'll lose the HP you just got back. With Superbolide, since you're impervious to most attacks, you can get slowly healed during its 8sec duration and you won't lose any of these HP even if you get hit before the effect ends. Considering you have Aurora and Brutal Shell, it'll require less healing than any invuln besides HG. A WAR needs to be healed enough so that it survives the next auto attack right after Holmgang ends. Since he's still taking damage during the 6sec duration, you'll need to get some form of quick burst healing. A DRK will need to be healed for the amount equaling its maximum HP, so it requires a ton of healing in less than 10sec to prevent him from dying. A PLD won't need any healing, and a GNB will probably just need some regen ticks + its own self healing capabilities. It makes a big difference.

With that said, if Holmgang remains as a 3min CD only, it'll still outshine every other invuln. It trivializes too much tank busters on a tank that already has the most personal mitigation. It's bonkers.

Ah... Is that so... that's pretty nifty then.

[Lyth]

SHOULD there be anything done about Holmgang?

WHAT should be done with it?

NERF IT TO THE GROUND.

[fumofu]

NERF IT TO THE GROUND.

It doesn't need to be nerfed. It's already a pathetic skill only useful in some very specific raid and ex trial situations. 'Low' cd doesn't make it any more better. Absolutely useless in dungeons. Doesn't even compare with Hallowed Ground which actually helps you to survive, all Holmgang does is kill you in 6sec cos you can't move and end up standing in aoe when skill duration ends. Not to mention that you have to have supermen reflexes to time it, cos it's only 'saves' you if your hp is almost empty, and to make things worse there's that delay between pressing skill and it being actualy activated, which leads to absurd situation when 'immortality' skill is used but you're already dead.

Living Dead at least let's you move and give healer more time to bring your hp up. And Superbolide is even better. You're not rooted in place and you are not dead if healer fails you to bring your hp to 100%. That leaves Holmgang as it is now - trash skill.

[Fluffernuff]

It doesn't need to be nerfed. It's already a trash skill only useful in some very specific raid and ex trial situations. 'Low' cd doesn't make it any more better. Absolutely useless in dungeons. Doesn't even compare with Hallowed Ground which actually helps you to survive, all Holmgang does is kill you in 6sec cos you can't move and end up standing in aoe when skill duration ends. Not to mention that you have to have supermen reflexes to time it, cos it's only 'saves' you if your hp is almost empty, and to make things worse there's that delay between pressing skill and it being actualy activated, which leads to absurd situation when 'immortality' skill is used but you're already dead.

Living Dead at least let's you move and give healer more time to bring your hp up. And Superbolide is even better. You're not rooted in place and you are not dead if healer fails you to bring your hp to 100%. That leaves Holmgang as it is now - trash skill.

These points are all objectively false. Very first point... you seem to be under the impression Holmgang sets your HP to 1. it does not. it prevents you from being reduced below 1. you can still keep your tank stance thrill of battle 14k HP. unlike GNB.

Very specific EX and Raid fights? you mean like... all of them?
with DRKs lopsided kit forcing DRK to use LD as a standard cooldown? Where the power of hallowed is relegated to niche and specific strats for specific and niche fights? PLD is the specific and niche. DRK isnt even in the race. Holmgang is the gold standard.

Low cooldown doesnt make it better?
Holmgang's low CD makes it the best tank invuln by a country mile in all the ways that matters for an invuln. This is almost purely because of it's short CD. This isnt a matter of simple opinion. this has been the literal reasoning for raiding and EX for years now since HW. This isnt a mentality. this isnt a playstyle. this has objective data and is empirical fact at this point. It's low cooldown is so powerful that is ceases to compete with the other invulns. it's competing with abilities that have the same cooldown; shadow wall and sentinel. Is holmgang better or worse than those for mitigation?

Holmgang fails to keep you alive and hallowed helps you survive?
You're still not going to 1 hp, and even if you were, youre immune to death and can still be healed. if it takes your healer 6s to fail to notice you at 1 HP and theres an AoE under you, thats not a failing of WAR. Even in this worst case scenario, youre still alive for 6s longer than you otherwise would have. it helped you survive.
(Small edit after the fact i failed to add to this specific point: very few great WARs will do this because of DPS among other things, but if you have no incoming heals for 6s, WAR can swap to defiance, equib/thrill, inner release inner beast/steel cyclone spam, and probably wont need the heal in a dungeon setting. this isnt innate to holmgang, but just to emphasize how little being at 1 HP really matters.)

you need superman reflexes to activate it skillfully and 6sec fails to do anything meaningful?
first of all, and a major point here, Hallowed and LD both have "delay" in activating their effect. they go on cooldown, wait for a tick, and then activate. you can actually die during both effects. Holmgang, since it has a debuff element, bypasses ticks and activates immediately. you need much LESS reflexes to activate it compared to the other 2. while 6s is the least amount the things Holmgang is used for and mitigating (like tankbusters), they all, without exception, have long cast times and can be activated mid-cast. There is very little downside to using holmgang- activation speed was never one of them. it's a strength.

The only true weakness to holmgang is being rooted and it leads to some awkward fun times when misused. you know what else has wonky effects when misused? hollowed having a 7 minute cooldown while youre still taking damage and die. LD lasting for near 20s and you still die because the healer didnt notice your buff and kept you at ~50% anyway.

At least holmgang has the decency to activate and be online immediately, will pull a target to you, and ignore knockbacks. Even if it's ever wasted, its actually back up again within a dungeon run, unlike the other 2.

[Rongway]

all Holmgang does is kill you in 6sec cos you can't move and end up standing in aoe when skill duration ends.

The only true weakness to holmgang is being rooted and it leads to some awkward fun times when misused.

When a target is selected, halts their movement with chains.

In ShB you can activate it without a target and get just the invincibility without binding yourself.

[fumofu]

In ShB you can activate it without a target and get just the invincibility without binding yourself.

Thank you for clarifying that. It's a really good boost for this skill.

These points are all objectively false. Very first point... you seem to be under the impression Holmgang sets your HP to 1. it does not. it prevents you from being reduced below 1. you can still keep your tank stance thrill of battle 14k HP. unlike GNB.

Very specific EX and Raid fights? you mean like... all of them?
with DRKs lopsided kit forcing DRK to use LD as a standard cooldown? Where the power of hallowed is relegated to niche and specific strats for specific and niche fights? PLD is the specific and niche. DRK isnt even in the race. Holmgang is the gold standard.

Low cooldown doesnt make it better?
Holmgang's low CD makes it the best tank invuln by a country mile in all the ways that matters for an invuln. This is almost purely because of it's short CD. This isnt a matter of simple opinion. this has been the literal reasoning for raiding and EX for years now since HW. This isnt a mentality. this isnt a playstyle. this has objective data and is empirical fact at this point. It's low cooldown is so powerful that is ceases to compete with the other invulns. it's competing with abilities that have the same cooldown; shadow wall and sentinel. Is holmgang better or worse than those for mitigation?

Holmgang fails to keep you alive and hallowed helps you survive?
You're still not going to 1 hp, and even if you were, youre immune to death and can still be healed. if it takes your healer 6s to fail to notice you at 1 HP and theres an AoE under you, thats not a failing of WAR. Even in this worst case scenario, youre still alive for 6s longer than you otherwise would have. it helped you survive.
(Small edit after the fact i failed to add to this specific point: very few great WARs will do this because of DPS among other things, but if you have no incoming heals for 6s, WAR can swap to defiance, equib/thrill, inner release inner beast/steel cyclone spam, and probably wont need the heal in a dungeon setting. this isnt innate to holmgang, but just to emphasize how little being at 1 HP really matters.)

you need superman reflexes to activate it skillfully and 6sec fails to do anything meaningful?
first of all, and a major point here, Hallowed and LD both have "delay" in activating their effect. they go on cooldown, wait for a tick, and then activate. you can actually die during both effects. Holmgang, since it has a debuff element, bypasses ticks and activates immediately. you need much LESS reflexes to activate it compared to the other 2. while 6s is the least amount the things Holmgang is used for and mitigating (like tankbusters), they all, without exception, have long cast times and can be activated mid-cast. There is very little downside to using holmgang- activation speed was never one of them. it's a strength.

The only true weakness to holmgang is being rooted and it leads to some awkward fun times when misused. you know what else has wonky effects when misused? hollowed having a 7 minute cooldown while youre still taking damage and die. LD lasting for near 20s and you still die because the healer didnt notice your buff and kept you at ~50% anyway.

At least holmgang has the decency to activate and be online immediately, will pull a target to you, and ignore knockbacks. Even if it's ever wasted, its actually back up again within a dungeon run, unlike the other 2.

You have a few good points here. I wasn't aware that Holmgang activates instantly and in general I can't really recall any situtation when this skill actualy saved me in constrast to Hallowed Ground, therefore I don't even keep Holmgang in my skillbar.

Another point is about content where it might be useful. I'm talking more of a casual player perspective, that means i'm mostly doing regular dungeons and raids, sometimes ex primals. And from my pow Holmgang is more a punishing skill than useful. Can't even think of eny situation where Holmgang could be useful. And yes, i'm aware of fact that it doesn't brings hp down to 1, but that changes nothing.

Guess it's different in hard content where players needs to plan their every skill. But for casual content it's meh...

[Hierro]

NERF IT TO THE GROUND.

Not gonna happen, and there ain't nothing you can do about it.