Feeling punished for having alts...

[Schwarzwind]

The thing that bothers me most when creating alt characters is in fact not the inventory problem but that event achievements do not carry over to the new character.

Of course, the new character has not participated in those events - but I have. Therefore, I would like to have access to the event rewards I have participated in like for example the hairstyle from the gold saucer event or the Makai stuff. I am a huge fan of creating different characters for different races and looks or to try out the different starting city stories but I always stop to play those characters midway because I would lose so many things by sticking to the new character that I always come back to my main.

I have started over on a new character already once and lost so many things like the Lightning event stuff which annoys me even today. Of cource I could buy the event rewards from the Mogstation for my new characters. But future events won't recognise my character from old events and treat me like an unknown adventurer due to which a lot of immersion is lost because I, who have done almost every seasonal event so far, am not treated as someone who has done all those quests. This made me sad in particular during the Little Lady's Day events because the songbirds simply did not recognise me. I had to look the cutszenes up on Youtube to get the full experience.. but it was not the same.

[Eldevern]

Considering some "arguments" read...

Currently, the only difference, between the game as it is and the possibility to exchange/mail to an alt, is you need to create an alts FC.
- There are crafters who own their personal FC and who prefers linkshells for friends.
- There are people who play with two accounts and who can do exchanges between their characters.

There's nothing to do with exploits or other things. Do you really think players who can play with two accounts don't have nine retainers? Not from what I know.

RMT? They can level with a free account and make a paying account when they need and they do multiboxing.
Bots? Trading with alts will not change anything, it is still one account and you can't play several alts at time (that leads me to the conclusion if you want to run several bots at time, you need multiboxing).

The only players who are currently actually "punished" (or we can consider who play with some kind of penalty) are fair players who play with one account. Trading with alt is available in others MMOs without causing any arms (in my experience it is really not what is calling for RMT and bots since in F2P you can have a lot of accounts, you just need several emails).

To compare alt sharing mail with "mules" from F2P multi-accounting/multi-boxing is kinda...


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What do I miss considering alts?
Mailing to alts (we can already make exchanges with house "shop" retainers).
I would be glad if it was possible to exchange personal items between my alts, events glamours, for example.
Sharing house with alts.
About events achievments... I would make it an option to not lock RP.


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EDIT :
Currently, the only difference, between the game as it is and the possibility to exchange/mail to an alt, is you need to create an alts FC.
This considering the matters of the rights the FC gives to its members (chests rights can be limited -and often need to be-).

[Iscah]

I'm not too fussed about QoL fixes - they'd be nice but not critical. I'm just getting tired of the arguments that "the only good reason to have an alt is [practical thing]". People have alts because they like having alts.

Currently, the only difference, between the game as it is and the possibility to exchange/mail to an alt, is you need to create an alts FC.

You don't need to create an "alts FC" to share items. You just need to put all your alts in the same FC. You'd only need your own FC if you intended to use the company chest as personal storage.

[Melichoir]

The only players who are currently actually "punished" (or we can consider who play with some kind of penalty) are fair players who play with one account. Trading with alt is available in others MMOs without causing any arms (in my experience it is really not what is calling for RMT and bots since in F2P you can have a lot of accounts, you just need several emails)

This isnt accurate. You are ignoring the structure of those games vs how FFXIV works.

Look, the model that SE has set up for FFXIV is that it is designed around 1 PC. You can do everything you want in this game with just 1 PC. This means class options, storage options, gameplay, etc is designed around this aspect. That means some of the payment and monotization that is part of this game is designed around that factor. This isnt how some of the other mainstream MMOs operate. The go to example being WoW. They have a game designed where it is expected for you to have multiple characters per account because to play the game to it's fullest, see the most of the world, see the storylines, etc, youre gonna have Multiple Alts with different roles because each character you create is locked into 1 class and the limitations of that. This matters a great deal because it changes a lot of how things are approached. For example, it makes sense that you can mail gold and gear to alts in WoW because its a soft work around for players whove leveled to max and want to leverage what gametime they've already put into the game to get their new alts off to a stronger start. Alts that you are expected to make. FFXIV is not designed to haev a player create multiple alts. This doesnt mean you cant, but that the game doesnt expect the average player to do this on a regular basis, unlike wow. And the game and it's structures demonstrate this.

Lets think realistically about what happens though if you do import stuff like mailing alts from WoW to this game. If you decided to change the system, what you will see is people make the rational decision that instead of buying extra retainers, theyll just buy the 15 a month sub (if they havent already) and use the retainers on alts to get additional storage (This happens in WoW as it currently is, among other MMOs with game structures that are very close to WoW). With 7 Alts per server, thats an additional 14 retainers for an extra dollar or two. Now you could do that currently but there are road blocks in the way which discourage a majority of the player base from engaging in that practice. People have figured out ways around it, yes, but that does not mean that it is an intended feature.

This is just one example of why certain things dont play out. As Ive said I havent read every single response in the thread, but I dont recall seeing any point addressing this directly outside of something a long the lines of "Well, a handful of people exploit these loop holes in the current system, therefore its fine if everyone does it. There is no consequence to this." But there is. Whether you agree with it or not, SE makes money from retainer services for additional income. Advocating for you to be allowed to mail stuff to alts and the like would cause people to start creating bank alts because it is the rational thing to do, and shut off that revenue source for SE and the Devs. They would have to change monetization practices to make up for that shortfall. That could be anything from increasing the amount of items that are exclusive to mog station to increasing the cost of the full size account sub, hurting everyone who has it.

What is the work aroudn to this? Why does this point just get ignored or handwaved cause "Oh look, a small handful of people do it, therefore its not a legitimate point." It's pointing to statistical outliers and saying the whole thing is bunk.

That is my whole point. Would it be a great QoL improvement for people who do have alts? Yes. It would be pretty good. But it also comes with consequences that, at times, I feel people are turning a blind eye too cause it's inconvenient to what they want.

The limit of 20 letters with up to 5 attachments here would make the mail far less practical as an additional storage and transfer system. Alts are already being created and used for additional storage because there are already ways to transfer items. Allowing players to mail items between their alts won't start something that isn't already happening.

Except I think you and many others are overstating how often this is done. Im not saying its not being done, but that youre using the same argument as everyone else is: "Everyone is doing it already via loopholes so its all for nothing; therefore just make it allowed."

The simple reason why I dont think this is nearly as prevelant as is being argued is because this practice would directly cut into the Devs (and SEs) bottom line. If it was as widespread, they would change the monetization model to compensate OR put in more stringent safeguards to dampen the activity. They havent done either, which means theyre operating on a margin where they expect a certain % of the player base to abuse the loopholes, but the broader base to not due to how much effort is necessary and just settle for more retainers.

The common complaint I see is "SE is greedy and Money Grubbing!" and yet they would let such an 'easy and widespread' loophole that cuts directly into their profits remain in the game is contradictory.

[Jojoya]

The simple reason why I dont think this is nearly as prevelant as is being argued is because this practice would directly cut into the Devs (and SEs) bottom line. If it was as widespread, they would change the monetization model to compensate OR put in more stringent safeguards to dampen the activity. They havent done either, which means theyre operating on a margin where they expect a certain % of the player base to abuse the loopholes, but the broader base to not due to how much effort is necessary and just settle for more retainers.

If this was truly about storage being used for monetization...

... they wouldn't have increased player and retainer inventory sizes a few years back.

... they wouldn't have given us chocobo saddlebags.

... they wouldn't have given us a glamour dresser.

... they wouldn't have given us the Store Room for housing.

All those things increased the total storage available to players without increasing revenue per player. They decreased our need to purchase retainers and thus the potential revenue to be gained through the sale of additional storage.

If SE isn't seeing that many players using alts as additional storage for a main character as you believe, it's because people aren't after additional storage for items that can be traded. If those players want the extra storage at all, it's for items that can't be traded like gear for glamours. Any intelligent person who wants additional storage for items that can be traded is already making use of alts because it's by far the cheapest option.

The game isn't going to suffer any additional harm if alts were allowed to send mail to each other. The harm is already being done through the marketboard and FC chests.

I still don't ever expect to see it happen. There's too much moldy leftover spaghetti code in the game. It's been 2 years since SE told us they wanted to set things up so alts would automatically be tenants of a private house owned by another character on the same account and world, and that hasn't happened yet. It's likely related to the same code that controls our ability to add friends and send mail.

And since I can still easily transfer items between my alts using the FC chest and marketboard, not being able to use the mail system to do it doesn't bother me. It would be nice to have but I don't need it.

[Melichoir]

If this was truly about storage being used for monetization...

... they wouldn't have increased player and retainer inventory sizes a few years back.

... they wouldn't have given us chocobo saddlebags.

... they wouldn't have given us a glamour dresser.

... they wouldn't have given us the Store Room for housing.

All those things increased the total storage available to players without increasing revenue per player. They decreased our need to purchase retainers and thus the potential revenue to be gained through the sale of additional storage.

If SE isn't seeing that many players using alts as additional storage for a main character as you believe, it's because people aren't after additional storage for items that can be traded. If those players want the extra storage at all, it's for items that can't be traded like gear for glamours. Any intelligent person who wants additional storage for items that can be traded is already making use of alts because it's by far the cheapest option.

The game isn't going to suffer any additional harm if alts were allowed to send mail to each other. The harm is already being done through the marketboard and FC chests.

I still don't ever expect to see it happen. There's too much moldy leftover spaghetti code in the game. It's been 2 years since SE told us they wanted to set things up so alts would automatically be tenants of a private house owned by another character on the same account and world, and that hasn't happened yet. It's likely related to the same code that controls our ability to add friends and send mail.

And since I can still easily transfer items between my alts using the FC chest and marketboard, not being able to use the mail system to do it doesn't bother me. It would be nice to have but I don't need it.

Sigh...

Im not saying its ONLY about storage, Im using storage as an example to illustrate that the advocation for what you want has downsides which is why its not only a net benefit.

But fine, lets just settle in to that specific point. Just because theyve slowly expanded storage over 3 xpacs now to accommodate for more items that the player base will inevitably collect. Design decisions that go into the game are decided with some careful thought in mind. Theyre not sitting there being like "Well we're super nice and were gonna knee cap our income, so lets just give more space". Theyre a business, like any else, and are weighing pros and cons of doing said things. The bet is to keep the sub base relatively happy by adjusting storage count to match the expansion, while not doing it so much that people wouldnt be incentivized to still buy extra retainer space. Dont give enough, and people rationalize that the storage space doesnt make sense cause were 3 xpacs in and get pissed about it, give to much adn people decide tehy dont need retainers. It's a balancing act.

Beyond that, youre just using systems in the game to get around the fact that they dont want you have free extra storage without trouble. Ive already explained that you using loopholes in the system doesnt justify your position regarding them not allowing trade between alts when Im talking about the larger implications of said system. A handful of people may use loopholes to get around limitations that were designed into the game, but SE probably banks on this happening cause no system is perfect so theyre (again) doing a balancing act where it would be more work (and money subsequently) for them to completely find solutions to close out said loop holes, so its easier to leave it open as long as it doestn cut to deeply.

The second it becomes much more cost effective for them to close said loopholes that would likely result in more retainer purchases (and more revenue for them), I would guarantee that theyll do it. I also guarantee that you will see some people using said loopholes will likely complain and try to justify it as 'working as intended' and SE being money grubby again.

[Arillyn]

Pretty sure back when ARR launched SE said they weren't allowing people to add their alts to their friend list was because of RMT exploiting it to move funds around. It doesn't stop RMT from doing that - they make FCs to do this. This just inconveniences the player base.

[Eldevern]

...

Except that... you can already sell stuff to your alt for 1gil with "shop" retainer system. This allows extra inventory and extra sellers on marketboard. And if you play with a secondary account. Buy one month, one time in your life and you will be able to get back the money when there is the "Come back" event (two or three times a years but we don't need that many gils it be a problem). And this extra account if far cheaper than several extra retainers for months.

With the alt FC chest it makes things even easier.

As said by Jojoya, it is probably more the code of the game itself the problem. Even if they rewrote some parts, I guess a big part of the game is still designed considering the technical limits from 2010 (and a patch on a patch on a patch makes things complicated to overhaul).

[LaylaTsarra]

RMT creates FC's all the time. They work around the not sharing by mail with their other mules by doing that. I think if you check any rmt bot you'll see they belong to a FC so being able to mail to alts doesn't pose a problem to them. They are simply able to transfer whatever they like that way.

Also with respect to retainers... I don't know I've made more money in this game than I can spend and I've only ever had 5 retainers and rarely did I use all the retainer slots for selling. I've never used my alts retainers to help me either and for the most part other than Tome mats I buy with tomes and materia I get from hunts I haven't seriously sold anything since 4.2.

I enjoy my alts and I'll continue to enjoy them whether or not SE ever gives us any relief.

[dinnertime]

People are really calling alts being extra inventory an exploit? I have to laugh.

Maybe if the game had a better inventory/storage system and if they actually made a real glamour log then this wouldn't be such an issue for most people. The game is also littered with too many currency-like items that just clutter your inventory. Regarding the Armory Chest, at some point it won't be able to hold every weapon/tool for each job when they add more jobs into the game.

Alts are a cheap but pretty time-consuming option to the current mess the inventory system is. Transferring stuff between your own characters via FC chest is an exploit? If it was, then the devs would've done something to make it so the game detects and prevents transferring items from a character you own into a different character you own. Someone here will probably blame it on spaghetti code, though.

Mailing between alts is already possible. The system already allows it since it treats two different characters from the same account as two different people entirely. The only exploit here is being able to friend your alts through working against how the servers work.

I really don't get why you can't add your own alts as friends anyway. To prevent RMT activity? Might as well delete the trading system entirely. Trading via by mail is essentially the same thing, but more tedious.