Soooo... Shadowbringers Monk

[Shurrikhan]

I agree with... about half of this.

For me, the biggest downgrade between HW and SB Monk was the lost of control and the reduced value of downtime. It just felt like someone who didn't even play Monk looked at the opinions of those who hadn't even finished leveling the job and figured, hey, we don't need X, and we may as well give Y, when in fact X was essential to any high level of play in the job, and Y was painfully unpolished.

ToD and, especially, Fracture previously allowed two low-efficiency-bump means of delaying stance timings or the need for proper positionals. They also gave decent cleave power, though that was a minimal gameplay concern and could even be seen as a chore when put to best use. In their place, where we had an almost constant degree of control if skillful, we got True North to outright negate positional concerns for a time and positionals themselves simply mattering far less.

The other was the value lost on TFC. When it was charged solely by downtime, it could of course remain stronger. And while it was nice seeing additional uses of the skill, it annoyed me that there was zero attempt to scale downtime skills with the improved uptime impact on Chakra generation. Meditation remained exactly as it had been when almost solely a mid-jump or between-fight tiresome reload. I'd have preferred to see it scale with Attack Speed and Critical Strike chance.

I'll admit, Riddle of Wind went from useless to an obligatory annoyance (given my ping). I couldn't understand why they'd take a skill that you'd want to enter for as little time as possible and then make it take two steps to generate its most valuable effect and its potency, especially when the latter step was weirdly slow to queue other skills during its animation.

In-combat Chakra generation was fine. Riddle of Fire slowing us down I would say actually gave us back some of our lost control, and I enjoyed the variance it brought. Tornado Kick rotations were fine apart from their failure to scale, again, with Skill Speed or Attack Speed buffs in any way. Riddle of Earth obviously should have allowed its effect to be triggered on attack taken, not merely damage taken (thus being thwarted by shields reducing damage taken to 0). Brotherhood shouldn't have been limited to just physical GCD attacks. But each of these were, essentially, simple polish issues. Had they been fixed, I've no doubt Stormblood Monk would have been one of those class designs I can point back to as "the good old times" when all else has turned to dross.



On the other hand, there is not a single change or addition I like about Shadowbringers so far aside from maybe Six-Pointed Star. Virtually everything else fits the non-examples of how I'd have liked to see Monk improved upon. It feels like we got the "or really anything but..." appendix of a suggestion post of any experienced Monk, or the idle thoughts of a level 68.

Yoshida mentioned that Shadowbringers Monk was the first time they went into a job design having thrown out all roadmaps or ideas for difficulty curves or accumulation of skills, instead just giving straight up what they thought players most wanted. And it shows. It has the good highlights. It has the gives the obvious, but ultimately superfluous, GL4 mechanic. But it again saps identity, forgoes polish, and doesn't improve upon a single core issue.

Monk isn't JUST attack speed. For me at least, it's decisions, versatility, flexibility, and--sometimes--decisive pursuit of one of many particular outputs as to achieve a certain fit for one's timings and maintain momentum. That means things like "Fists of" stances not just remaining being lip-service throw-ins. That means doubling down on their distinctions and balance, not just throwing them to the wind and obliging one as the wind-up stance and the other as literally all but the first 3 GCDs of combat. That means making something like GL4 an actual stance-related decision, rather than merely feigning added decisions or power when in fact simply (massively, if you include the loss to our oGCD damage) reducing our burst and extending our low-power ramp-up period. We're going to be balanced around GL4 basically 24/7; its presence only decreases our GL1-3 damage. And if attack speed really were the concern, the solution would have long since been simple: design need only stop shitting on Skill Speed as a stat through its inherent imbalances and its competition with stats like Critical Hit (given traits like Deep Meditation). Or, heck, do something with Fists of Wind at all times, rather than merely at GL3, or even bring GL back to 5% Damage and 5% Attack Speed per stack, with the rest of the damage coming from base potency. That would allow your extra 5% Attack Speed just fine, but in the hands of player decisions.

[Mortex]

Monk position in the shb meta highly depends on 2 factors. 1 how strong is crit as a stat going to be and 2 how mutch dmg increase you will have in raids from boss abilities so mantra will be a really good option ( I think it buffs now every heal if I saw that correctly) and don’t forget without piercing drg loses one of his sole reasons for a raid spot.

[Nier_Drakongod]

I believe they should just delete MNK.

[Sailysium]

I was honestly hoping they’d add skills that further capitalized the direction of the TK rotation. 4.2 and on has felt like the best iteration of Monk to me and that’s now being undone.

[Burningskull]

I've been saying Form Shift should refresh GL since they day they added it. Seeing them add 2 skills to BLM that refreshes their Enochian and allows them to move is just a slap in the face imo. What use is Anothman going to be if you have to dodge a lot during the bosses down time / invulnerable phase like with Hasmal in Rabanastre? And it STILL doesn't address the problem of keeping your stacks pre lvl 70, 60, and 50.

Chakra was an interesting idea till you tied it to critical hits. Look at what they did to BRD's procs. They now have a chance to trigger just off DoT damage now instead of DoT crits. Perhaps Chakras could be tied to doing positonals well, since those are sadly still in the game, or just on the third hit of your combo, Demolish and Snap Punch.

Tornado kick is a horrible idea. Oh you're going to loose GL stacks? Lets give you a way to just dump them instead of keeping them since your whole job is designed around building them and keeping them. And that's only if you know the fight well enough to know when the boss is going to jump or go invulnerable. If you are a reactionary player like me odds are the boss has jumped well before you've used Tornado Kick. They could have made this a move work like Nastrond during Riddle of Fire or have had it be a trait upgrade to Steel Peak.

I don't mind the Fist Stances so much in that they are mostly useless until you hit whatever level you get GL 4 at now and then Fist of Wind becomes useful. Fist of Stone, along with Riddle of Stone, doesn't need to be there. Maybe you could make it useful by making it remove your positional requirement while soloing. The Fist stances need to be more useful or just removed. They got rid of stance dancing on every other job why not MNK?

Six-sided Star while it looks cool, is just so underwhelming. I not only has a slower recast timer but makes all your GCDs slower. This could have been a really cool 4th combo while you are in GL 4. They could have traited it in as an upgrade to Snap Punch or Dragon kick. Something that would make it more interesting than what it is now.

The only thing I'm really happy about is that One-ilm Punch got replaced, FINALLY, with the AoE spin kick. It looks really cool and serves an actual useful purpose. The second hit in an AoE combo for those big dungeon pulls, and it keeps Twin Snakes buff up.

I think MNK needs a repositioning of some of the abilities it learns. Form Shift IMO should be learned the minute you learn Snap Punch. Fist Stances need more impact or more reason to weave into them during your combos or just need to be outright removed. As is now you should even need to learn Fist of Wind till you get GL 4. If positionals are going to stay in the game MNKs also need to be reworded more for doing them. Maybe each correct positional builds your Chakra Stacks or stacks to spend on Tornado Kick or something. There's no reason Howling Fist or even Steel Peak needed to be removed when they could have just upgraded them into Six-sided Star or Tornado Kick.

I honestly feel like they don't know what to do with MNK which is odd when they made such great jobs that are pretty much perfect right out of the gate. SAM and RDM were simple easy to understand rotations where most of their tools have a purpose. (Except Tether) DNC and GNB look amazing. GNB may need some number tweaks but for the most part it looks like it's a complete job that plays fine. Same for DNC. DRG is almost a work of art and gets straight upgrades to how it plays. BLM got single target versions to all it's AoE moves and a better Transpose when you are in Umbral Ice... so why can't they figure out what to do about MNK? Maybe it'll be the next BRD/MCH in 6.0 and get reworked.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

1. I honestly don't want maintaining GL to be as easy as moving a step further in my combo. I like the skill that moves me one step further in my combo to serve the purpose of... moving one step further in my combo. Given that every Coeurl skill resets GL, that should be benefit enough. If you don't at least get some enjoyment out of maintaining GL, I have trouble understanding how you even got to 70, if indeed you did.
   
2. I'll agree that Anatman is shit, especially given that it does not currently refresh GL if you're already at GL4. I also hate that it's presently ticks slowly and will likely remain on the server tick.
   
3. Moving from Crit chance to base hit doesn't actually change gameplay at all; it merely changes stat scaling. A 70% chance on critical with an average of a 22% crit chance and 15% chance per proc are of no real difference save that one you can increase (though now only via DRG and DNC instead of your own kit) and thus plays more dynamically and the other you cannot and thus plays more statically.
   
4. Applying the Chakra to positionals would make positionals either crippling to miss or would remove them from Monk play until receiving The Forbidden Chakra only to suddenly stick you with 50 (SB TFC) to 70 (ShB TFC) potency loss per missed positional in Heavensward... Similarly, sticking it on Coeurl skills would give a further 50 to 70 potency lead to every Coeurl skill in Perfect Balance, likely costing us further cooldown time on the skill (already increased from a 1 minute CD to 2 minutes).
   
5. I, for one, love Tornado Kick. It was almost exactly what we needed in HW, and then fit in quite cohesively with RoW and the 1-minute PB of 4.2 Monk.
   
6. The job is built around doing damage, not just maintaining GL to attack quickly. If you cared about maintaining GL, I doubt you'd ask for a free, spammable GL-maintenance skill.
   
7. In Stormblood, given proper timing and use of RoE, only... three(?) fights require you to lose GL, meaning that TK doesn't have to be used with perfect pre-jump timing.
   
8. Nastrond is literally just a 10-second CD with only 0-9 seconds of bankability. Do you really want Tornado Kick to just be another oGCD to use nearly on cooldown? If so, that's... fine, I guess? I'll just happily disagree with such suggestions.
   
9. Agreed; Fist Stances need to be more useful. But removing tank stances has absolutely zero relevance to Monk's stances; the function altogether differently and serve altogether different purposes.
   
10. Fists of Wind becoming useful, in this case, just means Fists of Fire becoming not useful. You still have only one choice at a time, sadly; you just switch which that is after 3 GCDs of combat. GCDs 1 through 3 are Fire. GCDs 4 through 127 are Wind.
    
11. Given that Riddle of Earth is presently far superior to Anatman for GL maintenance, I must disagree.
    
12. Every melee has to deal with positionals while soloing. Aside from Bootshine, Monk will lose 20 potency (up to 30 relative potency) per missed positional; Samurai loses 60. If you're going to "fix" positioning for Monk, why not "fix" it for everyone, through universal changes to mob turning speeds or the like?
    
13. Six-sides star doesn't make your GCDs slower. It merely consumes a double-GCD (though in practice, only a net cost of one and a third GCDs). What value would SSS add to the rotation if it merely replaced Snap Punch, Demolish, or Rockbreaker, or simply reduced how quickly you could react to situations or maintain GL by giving it a 4th combo step ("Form")? You can already make Monk's rotation far more interesting by playing at higher Skill Speeds for a Demo-drop or Double-boot rotation. By adding a 4th step you'd make any rotational variance nigh impossible.
    
14. Personally, I'd have much preferred to keep my utility and have content actually include a reason to have utility while Form Shift were made more than just a pre-pull annoyance. I especially dislike losing the benefit of Attack Speed on Twin Snakes windows in AoEs and that our AoE could still be sufficiently strong even while allowing us to focus target. Again, Shadowbringers has doubled down on removing whatever makes us unique. But /shrug. I'll admit it does look cool.
    
15. You want to give the equivalent of being able to start your rotation with Chaos Thrust and Heavy Thrust in the same GCD... to a level 6? SAM and RDM were level 50 "out of the gate". Monk starts at level 1. It makes just as much difference as one would imagine given that... Again, agreed on Fists needing buffs and greater distinction. "Rewarding" positionals is just the flip-side of "not being penalized" for missing positionals. Monk will soon be the least penalized per GCD and among the least penalized overall.
    
16. Yeah, I still have no idea why they're removing Steel Peak and Howling Fist. Both fit extremely well into the Monk aesthetic, were iconic, and easily could have been worked to further differentiate Fist Stances.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

I've ranted on the balance discord regarding Monk and agree with everything you've said. It feels as though the devs keep catering to bad monks that can't keep GL up. Which keeps the job in the stale limbo state as opposed to rewarding good play. Then again. SE caused this problem with TK where some players spam it on cooldown, blissfully unaware it is a dps loss to do so. Maybe we'll get decent changes halfway through the expansion; though I wish these problems that have persisted for years now weren't still prevalent.

[Shurrikhan]

I've ranted on the balance discord regarding Monk and agree with everything you've said. It feels as though the devs keep catering to bad monks that can't keep GL up. Which keeps the job in the stale limbo state as opposed to rewarding good play. Then again. SE caused this problem with TK where some players spam it on cooldown, blissfully unaware it is a dps loss to do so. Maybe we'll get decent changes halfway through the expansion; though I wish these problems that have persisted for years now weren't still prevalent.

Perhaps SE should consider making effective potency over time a bit more visible to the average player?

As long as parsers stay don't-ask-don't-tell, they can't very well be depended on for learning tools, even for just PC players. And a huge portion of players have no such access to third-party learning tools, even if such were encouraged.

If the devs want to allow for a tighter range of competency -- as to avoid aggravated conflicts in 'style of play' or perceived difficulty -- without lobotomizing their classes they're going to need greater in-game support tools for learning (likely through real-time and especially analyze-able data by which to measure and learn from their actions experientially, such as but not limited to an official parser).

[James2015]

I would be very happy with Monk if they just changed RoF, SsS, Tk and removed stances.

RoF - Remove the 15% slow.
SsS - Make it a OGCD and have it grant us a stack of GL on a 30s recast timer.
TK - Have it only useable at 4 stacks of GL as an OGCD or something more in-depth.

Or just remove RoF 15% slow and make SsS and TK OGCDs with a 30s recast timer and nothing more so I can enjoy the visual effects without being penalised.

I have only been playing FFXIV for 6 months and I love it and Monk very much.

[reyre]

I would be very happy with Monk if they just changed RoF, SsS, Tk and removed stances.

RoF - Remove the 15% slow.
SsS - Make it a OGCD and have it grant us a stack of GL on a 30s recast timer.
TK - Have it only useable at 4 stacks of GL as an OGCD or something more in-depth.

Or just remove RoF 15% slow and make SsS and TK OGCDs with a 30s recast timer and nothing more so I can enjoy the visual effects without being penalised.

I have only been playing FFXIV for 6 months and I love it and Monk very much.

One of the, if not the BIGGEST issue with MNK is the redundancy and kind of pointless skills it have. SsS, RoE, Anatman all do the same thing, literally the exact same thing, so why do we have 3 of them? I dont count PB because it is kind of the only one we really need and the 60 sec CD is just perfect, why up it to 2 min again, is baffling.

The core of MNK is to maintain Gl and the skill that we have in order to spend said GL is mediocre at best, there is really not point in using it, i mean not anymore since RoW and PB are going to be gutted. To the point that with so many GL management/sustaining skills why even have Tk spend Gl stacks at all, its counter intuitive, 4 skills that can prevent Gl stack loss make TK higly undesireable. Its just so...bemusing.
RoF is useless in new content, the whole reason for its existance was to allow players to double weave, now since we no longer have HF or SP, what the actuall f*ck are we going to double weave? the slow is just pointless.
Deep Meditation II, so it increases Chakra generation from 50% to 70% when you crit a weapon skill, sounds good righ? Wrong, before this passive might have been neat but since mnk has no IR i.e self buffing crit chance skill it simply means we are now overly dependadnt on Bs and party comp (which according to yoshida is somenthing they are moving away from, mandatory party composition but mnk is still tied to it and bad RNG). My issue with this is not the RNG perse is the fact that now the players have even less control over the class, before you could use IR to boost your chances of crit in a RoF window, or save it for a reopener or use it to set up a HF/EF window ending in TK. With these changes the only thing you control is your PF, so a DNC (obviously), a DRG, a NIN...etc. As you can see Riveting gameplay, it is such a stupid desing choice.

Stances are pointless and GL4 as neat as it is, its just kind of a given.