The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[Melichoir]

Perhaps I should make it clear.

In an optimal setting (tank/dps/healer aren't undergeared for the content, they are fine with the content, no one is new to their class, etc) wall-to-wall should be the standard.
Their are a lot of variables with not just tanks, but the party in general. Wall-to-wall is what should be happening under a normal dungeon run where people are comfortable.

As far as the OPs post goes though, I still believe that if a DPS is pulling more, they are trying to nudge the tank into speeding up the dungeon, and pushing the tank into getting out of their comfort zone to make things run quicker & smoother.

Speaking from personal experience, first few things I do on entering a dungeon as a tank is check who I got, check their gear, check what classes they have leveled. If I notice they don't have the gear and don't have many leveled classes, gonna assume they're not as experienced and/or new to the game. I will pull regular groups and see how it fairs. If it looks easy, Ill speed up. If they're geared and got classes, Ill pull big and see how its handled and adjust accordingly.

I cant speak for other tanks, but it is annoying to be told to pull more from inexperienced players (not saying in this thread) who haven't bothered seeing what their fellow players are up to. Or since I'm used to pulling and what not, I'm keenly aware what hurts in dungeons, so I may purposefully not pull something because it's easier to pull the trash around something and deal with that, then deal with the hard hitting mob. This is where communication comes in. Again, to many times I get an overzealous DPS or healer who wants the dungeon done in 10 minutes or less pull something that hits hard into me when I already have 7 things on me. I die, healer dies, DPS run around like chickens before dying, mobs reset, and we spent more time because of that foolishness. Optimal or not, talk to your tank before pulling more. Ive told DPS a few times in the past the reason I dont pull 'x' is because how they hit while Im already tanking quite a bit. Sometimes slow and steady is better than big and fast. It really depends on the dungeon, and your party comp.

[EmoPanther]

As a healer, I like wall to wall pulls. I get bored really easily if the tank isn't dieing. Pretty much the same for when I'm playing one of the tanks. If I ain't dieing, I ain't pulling enough.

[Hash_Browns]

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen this infamous "slow tank" who pulls mob by mob and lingers between every pull. I'm sure they exist, but from some comments you'd think half the tank population fell in this category, yet I've never seen even one.

I have seen countless impatient dps pulling in smooth dungeons where the pace was good and mobs were melting down. Usually someone dies.

I have very rarely seen this "wall to wall half-the-dungeon" pull that so many tanks claim to do. Most pull 2 packs. The main one I see is the start of Bardam's and I have yet to see a tank succeed that without a death.

I'm just going off my own experiences. It's been very different from what I read here. Either way majority rules, so personally I don't queue as tank for pugs. Ever. I have squadrons, FC runs and HoH. Enjoy the queues for the worthy tank.

It's rare for wall-to-wall pulls in groups that aren't premade. I think the best example is Castrum (even though it's level 50 content.)

Start of the dungeon pulls to the boss door.
After the first boss you pull to where you plant the bombs, deal with all the mobs, and then plant the bombs & head to the boss.
After the second boss, you pull to where Cid stops.
After you clear that area, you kill 1 mob because of a gate.
Finally, you clear the rest of the mobs blocking the boss.

This is obviously the most basic one, but I believe it's common enough.

[wereotter]

The rule is as long as no one dies it's fine.

If a tank kills people by refusing to pick up adds, kick them and healtank. Because they refuse to do their job.

Tank is the least useful role in normal modes, so if they can't push one button to do their one job get rid of them.

The corollary to this rule is it doesn't matter what you personally want or are comfortable with, you should get kicked off if your party disagrees with you.

You're exactly the kind of person that pushed me away from tanking entirely. Rather than understand that everyone is not at the same experience level, gear level, or confidence level, and letting a player gain experience, you just choose to kick them so they can't gain that experience as a player they need. I'm certainly glad we're on different data centers so I'll never have to see you in a roulette....

I went through from level 30 to level 60 in Heavensward as a Dark Knight then got to the roulettes at level 60 without ever having done a large pull, and ran into players not caring, not listening, or not understanding when I explained that I had poor gear compared to my DPS and the level of the mobs, and didn't have the confidence to pull more than I was, and would get yelled at and kicked. So rather than get the opportunity to learn, I just abandoned the role entirely. New tanks need the opportunity to gain more confidence, and eventually they will be up to par with other more experienced tanks, and not everyone has a group of friends who will be willing to just run random dungeons over and over so they feel okay with it, so they just use the roulette to get there.

Also I feel like the tank needs to be aware of party composition. For example, I had a run back in the day where I got Halatali normal in a leveling roulette with a monk and dragoon, and a healer that was annoyed I was doing small pulls. But monk and dragoon at that level have zero AOE skills, so even after reminding the healer of this, the healer still just pouted and refused to DPS the smaller packs.

[Jeeqbit]

1. There is an unwritten rule that only tanks pull. I know because, as a tank, parties have always waited for me to pull, even if I just stand there for 5 minutes. That's proof that the community, in general, sees waiting for the tank as an unwritten rule.
2. Your concern that a lot of new gunbreakers won't do big pulls doesn't matter, because a lot of tanks already don't do big pulls, which makes me tank more often than I otherwise would. I tried queueing for experts on DPS jobs sometimes and they were pulling 3 enemies at a time and I was so bored. That's why it's just the truth that if you want big pulls, level a tank or have a tank buddy that you do content with.
3. If you pull when you're not the tank, a lot of tanks will refuse to grab aggro of it. Why? Because they didn't pull it and feel that is stepping on their toes or insulting them. If you're going to pull without the tank, be prepared for salt and be prepared to tank it yourself on a healer or DPS job, which is possible depending on your item level and mob actions. Almost every tank I've ever discussed this with has said they would not pickup enemies if they didn't pull them, so keep this in mind if you do it.
4. Sometimes I won't pull a few extra mobs in a big pull if I feel that most parties or that party in particular can't handle it, or if my tank cooldowns won't stretch far enough. I personally just take aggro if someone pulls those extra mobs though. If they pulled them then they are prepared to heal them or DPS them fast. If we wipe, which we sometimes do because my original judgement to not pull was good, then they know it's on them.

[van_arn]

You're exactly the kind of person that pushed me away from tanking entirely. Rather than understand that everyone is not at the same experience level, gear level, or confidence level, and letting a player gain experience, you just choose to kick them so they can't gain that experience as a player they need. I'm certainly glad we're on different data centers so I'll never have to see you in a roulette....

I went through from level 30 to level 60 in Heavensward as a Dark Knight then got to the roulettes at level 60 without ever having done a large pull, and ran into players not caring, not listening, or not understanding when I explained that I had poor gear compared to my DPS and the level of the mobs, and didn't have the confidence to pull more than I was, and would get yelled at and kicked. So rather than get the opportunity to learn, I just abandoned the role entirely. New tanks need the opportunity to gain more confidence, and eventually they will be up to par with other more experienced tanks, and not everyone has a group of friends who will be willing to just run random dungeons over and over so they feel okay with it, so they just use the roulette to get there.

Also I feel like the tank needs to be aware of party composition. For example, I had a run back in the day where I got Halatali normal in a leveling roulette with a monk and dragoon, and a healer that was annoyed I was doing small pulls. But monk and dragoon at that level have zero AOE skills, so even after reminding the healer of this, the healer still just pouted and refused to DPS the smaller packs.

Good then. Not everyone can handle tanking.

Thank you for confirmation that kicking eventuality causes people who don't want to put in the effort to give up and reroll. Your talk of confidence is nonsense when normal mode tanking is one button.

This is absolutely working as intended, and tanks that refuse to work with their party should be encouraged to give up.

This also applies to healers that spam cure 1 or ice mages. Make these players unwelcome in groups until they either learn, reroll, or are exiled from party play.

[AxlStream]

You pull it you tank it and I'll let you die for it. Looking at you, skippable dragons in the Aery.

[SenorPatty]

I'm of the belief that tank should pull it because it's the job designed to be most effective at distributing enmity. So for me, the issue I have with a tank isn't as much as if they're being slow rather than can they successfully generate and hold aggro.

Tales of DF thread has a gallery of tanks who are fast on their feet and fail to hold aggro. Or slow on their feet and still fail to hold aggro. When it gets to that point, the tank is factually detrimental to the party and thus leaves the party with very little options:

-Attempt to educate tank on how to hold aggro and hope it sticks
-Get a replacement tank if the above fail
-Take control of the leading pace because tank is unable to hold aggro consistently.

Concerning the last point, it all falls to the type of dgn the party runs and how well dps can hold aggro off the healer. If they succeed, the healer can actually get the party through the instance and even in some cases, right through the final boss.

As such, in my perspective, this would be the only scenario where I would fully accept the party, myself included, to pull ahead of tank.

[wereotter]

Good then. Not everyone can handle tanking.

Thank you for confirmation that kicking eventuality causes people who don't want to put in the effort to give up and reroll.

This is absolutely working as intended, and tanks that refuse to work with their party should be encouraged to give up.

There's a different between saying "I don't have the gear to do this pull and don't have the confidence yet to do it" and "I refuse to do it"

It's not about not wanting to put in the effort, which you would have seen if you actually paid attention to what I said rather than just continuing with your toxic attitudes, it's about saying "I'm learning, and this is where my current skill level is" Kicking someone while learning is just an asshole thing to do. Parties who kick someone who is being open about how they're still learning their role is why people don't play the role in the first place. There's no opportunity to actually gain the skills you need to do the job the way that those who have been doing it for years do.

[van_arn]

There's a different between saying "I don't have the gear to do this pull and don't have the confidence yet to do it" and "I refuse to do it"

It's not about not wanting to put in the effort, which you would have seen if you actually paid attention to what I said rather than just continuing with your toxic attitudes, it's about saying "I'm learning, and this is where my current skill level is" Kicking someone while learning is just an asshole thing to do. Parties who kick someone who is being open about how they're still learning their role is why people don't play the role in the first place. There's no opportunity to actually gain the skills you need to do the job the way that those who have been doing it for years do.

New does not apply to any dungeon for tanking beyond Brayflox.

If a tank can't handle aoe threat and cooldowns -all that is necessary for multipulls- beyond that point they need a kick.

If a tank is so badly geared they're in danger from a double pull, they need a kick to purchase better gear.

If they have no gil for gear, they need to find income that does not require a party to carry them.

Once again, tanks are the least necessary role for normal modes. You're going to need to work harder than a healer that can forcibly take your job over if you can't justify your spot on the roster.

Thank square for their incompetent incoming damage adjustments for this situation. Tanks are blue dps because that's all the encounters demand them to be.

As for confidence, a certain degree of that is a prerequisite for tanking. Don't even bother leveling a tank if you don't meet that prerequisite. It's plainly not for the passive player.