The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[Jeeqbit]

1. There is an unwritten rule that only tanks pull. I know because, as a tank, parties have always waited for me to pull, even if I just stand there for 5 minutes. That's proof that the community, in general, sees waiting for the tank as an unwritten rule.
2. Your concern that a lot of new gunbreakers won't do big pulls doesn't matter, because a lot of tanks already don't do big pulls, which makes me tank more often than I otherwise would. I tried queueing for experts on DPS jobs sometimes and they were pulling 3 enemies at a time and I was so bored. That's why it's just the truth that if you want big pulls, level a tank or have a tank buddy that you do content with.
3. If you pull when you're not the tank, a lot of tanks will refuse to grab aggro of it. Why? Because they didn't pull it and feel that is stepping on their toes or insulting them. If you're going to pull without the tank, be prepared for salt and be prepared to tank it yourself on a healer or DPS job, which is possible depending on your item level and mob actions. Almost every tank I've ever discussed this with has said they would not pickup enemies if they didn't pull them, so keep this in mind if you do it.
4. Sometimes I won't pull a few extra mobs in a big pull if I feel that most parties or that party in particular can't handle it, or if my tank cooldowns won't stretch far enough. I personally just take aggro if someone pulls those extra mobs though. If they pulled them then they are prepared to heal them or DPS them fast. If we wipe, which we sometimes do because my original judgement to not pull was good, then they know it's on them.

[van_arn]

You're exactly the kind of person that pushed me away from tanking entirely. Rather than understand that everyone is not at the same experience level, gear level, or confidence level, and letting a player gain experience, you just choose to kick them so they can't gain that experience as a player they need. I'm certainly glad we're on different data centers so I'll never have to see you in a roulette....

I went through from level 30 to level 60 in Heavensward as a Dark Knight then got to the roulettes at level 60 without ever having done a large pull, and ran into players not caring, not listening, or not understanding when I explained that I had poor gear compared to my DPS and the level of the mobs, and didn't have the confidence to pull more than I was, and would get yelled at and kicked. So rather than get the opportunity to learn, I just abandoned the role entirely. New tanks need the opportunity to gain more confidence, and eventually they will be up to par with other more experienced tanks, and not everyone has a group of friends who will be willing to just run random dungeons over and over so they feel okay with it, so they just use the roulette to get there.

Also I feel like the tank needs to be aware of party composition. For example, I had a run back in the day where I got Halatali normal in a leveling roulette with a monk and dragoon, and a healer that was annoyed I was doing small pulls. But monk and dragoon at that level have zero AOE skills, so even after reminding the healer of this, the healer still just pouted and refused to DPS the smaller packs.

Good then. Not everyone can handle tanking.

Thank you for confirmation that kicking eventuality causes people who don't want to put in the effort to give up and reroll. Your talk of confidence is nonsense when normal mode tanking is one button.

This is absolutely working as intended, and tanks that refuse to work with their party should be encouraged to give up.

This also applies to healers that spam cure 1 or ice mages. Make these players unwelcome in groups until they either learn, reroll, or are exiled from party play.

[AxlStream]

You pull it you tank it and I'll let you die for it. Looking at you, skippable dragons in the Aery.

[wereotter]

Good then. Not everyone can handle tanking.

Thank you for confirmation that kicking eventuality causes people who don't want to put in the effort to give up and reroll.

This is absolutely working as intended, and tanks that refuse to work with their party should be encouraged to give up.

There's a different between saying "I don't have the gear to do this pull and don't have the confidence yet to do it" and "I refuse to do it"

It's not about not wanting to put in the effort, which you would have seen if you actually paid attention to what I said rather than just continuing with your toxic attitudes, it's about saying "I'm learning, and this is where my current skill level is" Kicking someone while learning is just an asshole thing to do. Parties who kick someone who is being open about how they're still learning their role is why people don't play the role in the first place. There's no opportunity to actually gain the skills you need to do the job the way that those who have been doing it for years do.

[van_arn]

There's a different between saying "I don't have the gear to do this pull and don't have the confidence yet to do it" and "I refuse to do it"

It's not about not wanting to put in the effort, which you would have seen if you actually paid attention to what I said rather than just continuing with your toxic attitudes, it's about saying "I'm learning, and this is where my current skill level is" Kicking someone while learning is just an asshole thing to do. Parties who kick someone who is being open about how they're still learning their role is why people don't play the role in the first place. There's no opportunity to actually gain the skills you need to do the job the way that those who have been doing it for years do.

New does not apply to any dungeon for tanking beyond Brayflox.

If a tank can't handle aoe threat and cooldowns -all that is necessary for multipulls- beyond that point they need a kick.

If a tank is so badly geared they're in danger from a double pull, they need a kick to purchase better gear.

If they have no gil for gear, they need to find income that does not require a party to carry them.

Once again, tanks are the least necessary role for normal modes. You're going to need to work harder than a healer that can forcibly take your job over if you can't justify your spot on the roster.

Thank square for their incompetent incoming damage adjustments for this situation. Tanks are blue dps because that's all the encounters demand them to be.

As for confidence, a certain degree of that is a prerequisite for tanking. Don't even bother leveling a tank if you don't meet that prerequisite. It's plainly not for the passive player.

[Melichoir]

Good then. Not everyone can handle tanking.

Thank you for confirmation that kicking eventuality causes people who don't want to put in the effort to give up and reroll. Your talk of confidence is nonsense when normal mode tanking is one button.

This is absolutely working as intended, and tanks that refuse to work with their party should be encouraged to give up.

This also applies to healers that spam cure 1 or ice mages. Make these players unwelcome in groups until they either learn, reroll, or are exiled from party play.

You sound like a swell guy at times....

You can die in normal dungeons by overpulling or not knowing what monsters do what. As an example: Final Sting is a thing. You pull overzealously and get hit with it, youll die from it typically. More experienced tanks will account for this in some fashion. Or chain pull into two large packs that each have pretty heavy hitting tank busting monsters.

This idea of "Git Gud - Tanking is easy" is an oversimplification. Wall to wall pulling and keeping aggro is the bare minimum is a stupid position. Cause some of these dungeons, you can pull right up to the boss, but it certainly wouldnt be recommended even with experienced parties.

There are bad tanks, slow tanks, who want to live in their easy mode comfort zone. Sure. But theyre not the majority, nor is it wrong for newer tanks to take it a bit easier to they can get better. No one starts out the best.

[van_arn]

You sound like a swell guy at times....

You can die in normal dungeons by overpulling or not knowing what monsters do what. As an example: Final Sting is a thing. You pull overzealously and get hit with it, youll die from it typically. More experienced tanks will account for this in some fashion. Or chain pull into two large packs that each have pretty heavy hitting tank busting monsters.

This idea of "Git Gud - Tanking is easy" is an oversimplification. Wall to wall pulling and keeping aggro is the bare minimum is a stupid position. Cause some of these dungeons, you can pull right up to the boss, but it certainly wouldnt be recommended even with experienced parties.

There are bad tanks, slow tanks, who want to live in their easy mode comfort zone. Sure. But theyre not the majority, nor is it wrong for newer tanks to take it a bit easier to they can get better. No one starts out the best.

That's why you communicate with your party. You don't single pull because of one fat bird in Mettle or an occasional bee.

If your party doesn't know the pulls, then they're just as clueless as you are and it's a mess anyway. You probably won't get kicked from that group on that alone.

That said, the mechanics for multipulls are all taught at Brayflox. You aren't new beyond that dungeon.

[SenorPatty]

I'm of the belief that tank should pull it because it's the job designed to be most effective at distributing enmity. So for me, the issue I have with a tank isn't as much as if they're being slow rather than can they successfully generate and hold aggro.

Tales of DF thread has a gallery of tanks who are fast on their feet and fail to hold aggro. Or slow on their feet and still fail to hold aggro. When it gets to that point, the tank is factually detrimental to the party and thus leaves the party with very little options:

-Attempt to educate tank on how to hold aggro and hope it sticks
-Get a replacement tank if the above fail
-Take control of the leading pace because tank is unable to hold aggro consistently.

Concerning the last point, it all falls to the type of dgn the party runs and how well dps can hold aggro off the healer. If they succeed, the healer can actually get the party through the instance and even in some cases, right through the final boss.

As such, in my perspective, this would be the only scenario where I would fully accept the party, myself included, to pull ahead of tank.

[MirielleLavandre]

Thanks for all the replies! I made a thread years ago about how there probably isn't really a lack of tanks, but that many tanks just never go into the DF at all and only tank for friends. Thus, the ones who DO use the DF end up waiting longer for tanks b/c many tanks (myself included) usually only tank for friends or FC. My original post was in reply to chats in FC where some members were getting yelled at for pulling for the tank who was supposedly going too slow. Then I saw a post today on reddit (since deleted) about someone getting kicked from a dungeon after pulling 2 extra mobs and also after bragging they couldn't be kicked b/c they were in the party with the other dps as a friend.

Anyways, in regards to one thread about rarely seeing wall to wall pulls, myself and most other tanks I know pull as much as we can until we are stopped either by gates or something in the dungeon that prevents passage. This is, of course, as long as the party is capable and able to do these pulls gear wise. Again, however, as someone mentioned, I'm usually with friends and a healer I trust, so maybe this isn't the norm. I also wasn't worried that Gunbreakers wouldn't pull huge packs, I was more concerned for them that other players would 'pull for them' if they were going slow due to being new to tanking, assuming they weren't already main or career tanks. It is really interesting getting the community's views on this.

Also on topic, I've never had anyone pull for me, except by accident if they accidentally kept running and/or tabbed another enemy, and I always pick it up anyways. I admit, though, that I'd be pretty pissed if someone thought I was going too slow and pulled for me after I'd already taken party composition and gear and healer comfort into consideration :P

[Jennah]

As the tank - I generally start by pulling 2 packs. (For most currently relevant dungeons, that *is* wall-to-wall; but I won't take a 3rd until I've seen how the group does.)
Maybe 95% of the time, everything goes just fine. If there's actually a wipe; or I spend most of the fight sub 20% hp without seeing any healer dps; or neither dps is AoEing, I might slow down. And grit my teeth.
As a dps, I usually just grit my teeth and let the tank do whatever. If they're pulling small, I'll often by reflex be halfway to the next pack before I realize they've stopped; but I'm usually self-aware enough not to facepull.
Sometimes just seeing me out there clues them in; if not, the most I'll do is ask if they can pull more. If I was mad enough to do it for them, I'd also be mad enough to rage quit and sit on my hands for 30 minutes.