Why do we still have enmity?

[Argyle_Darkheart]

When did I state something contrary to that?

Right here.

Where enmity is a non-factor so long as DPS/Healers press Diversion/Lucid Dream on CD and Tanks Circle-Shirk during a fight...

Emphasis mine.

The fact of the matter is that enmity is currently managed. That it's to the point where tanks almost never use their enmity combo isn't really the point. Enmity isn't something you can ignore in its entirety, nor is it something you have to constantly monitor.

[Kaitoo]

This was to the point where back in the day in WoW, people had to wait for Tanks to build up stacks of Sunder to have enough enmity before people could start attacking. With also times where if people got some lucky crits in a row, they'd then have to stop attacking and wait for the Tank to catch up in enmity.)

This scales infinitely, up until you have enough damage to kill the enemy in a single attack. With Enmity, it doesn't matter if you're 1 point above everyone else or 1,000,000 points above everyone else, the enemy will still be attacking you.

Thus once you generate enough enmity to maintain a lead over everyone else, more enmity generation is literally useless as it won't do a thing)

true pottery ~

[JETAlone01]

> The_Distinguished_Anarchist

I saw you over in the healer forums too freaking out because Yoshi P said they wanted healers to heal more. Is this what you do? You just bounce between different boards complaining about things you don't understand?

[Kalise]

Probably being the prior poster you're talking about, I've presented a system where enmity would not just be "enemy is attacking you" and thus not binary anymore.

Except that your "solution" doesn't really do anything about enmity control, other than make it so that Tanks simply spam out enmity 24/7 because it will provide the largest boost in rDPS.

The fact of the matter is that enmity is currently managed. That it's to the point where tanks almost never use their enmity combo isn't really the point. Enmity isn't something you can ignore in its entirety, nor is it something you have to constantly monitor.

It isn't managed though. Unless pressing Diversion on CD is "Managing enmity" since the other mentioned actions are done anyway. Circle-shirking happens when tank swaps happen anyway and people pop Lucid/Refresh for MP on CD anyway.

Outside of pressing Diversion on CD, no-one actually gives a damn about enmity because it's a non-factor.

true pottery ~

I like the part where you disregard other words in the post. Including the very next sentence.

You know, the part where I state:

"Thus once you generate enough enmity to maintain a lead over everyone else, more enmity generation is literally useless as it won't do a thing)"

Which is literally in the quote you provided.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

It isn't managed though. Unless pressing Diversion on CD is "Managing enmity" since the other mentioned actions are done anyway. Circle-shirking happens when tank swaps happen anyway and people pop Lucid/Refresh for MP on CD anyway.

Outside of pressing Diversion on CD, no-one actually gives a damn about enmity because it's a non-factor.

Serious question, have you done any of the Savage content this expansion, or either of the Ultimate encounters?

Enmity isn't as much of a non-issue as you would like to paint it; I can only guess why you're so insistent that it is.

[Dzian]

. With Enmity, it doesn't matter if you're 1 point above everyone else or 1,000,000 points above everyone else, the enemy will still be attacking you.

Thus once you generate enough enmity to maintain a lead over everyone else, more enmity generation is literally useless as it won't do a thing)

This is because enmity only ever goes up and up and up.

In older games it was a lot more dynamic so it did matter. If you only had a point nity lead then next time the boss hots you. Your going to lose that and then he'll turn to someone else where as a bigger lead would help but decays over time..

It's not to unlike life really. I could call someone at work an idiot and they might get really mad at me in that moment but few minutes later hes probably calmed down a bit.

Or hes turned around and given me what for and blew off some steam that way and then calmed down.. and all is forgotten

If it were like 14 I could call him an idiot and hed still be mega mad at me next year....

[Jandor]

It's one of those things isn't it, everyone says enmity isn't an issue at all, often leaving out the so long as everyone does their bit to manage it factor.

Well, yeah, so long as everyone is managing everything correctly HP isn't an issue either, neither are enrage timers, or any other mechanic for that matter.

The difficulty in this game comes from harder encounters requiring you to play closer and closer to perfect, enmity is admittedly a rather low hurdle to clear on your way to perfect play, but games do benefit from having some easy hurdles to clear at the start.

[Reynhart]

Except that your "solution" doesn't really do anything about enmity control, other than make it so that Tanks simply spam out enmity 24/7 because it will provide the largest boost in rDPS.

Not necessarily. Depending on how Floors are calculated or how enmity tools work, you could switch between optimizing Enmity or DPS.
For example, let's imagine that the effect of Provoke is to put you at the beginning of the next floor.

• If you know you won't be able to generate enough enmity to reach that next floor by yourself by the time Provoke is available, you'd better do your DPS rotation, then use Provoke, and start buiding enmity from that next floor.
  
• On the other hand, if you have some skills that would allow you to reach that floor by yourself, you'd keep your enmity rotation, and only use Provoke once you reach the next floor, thus gaining two floors at the same time.

It's still a bit raw, but I'm pretty sure you could polish this kind of mechanics to make enmity more engaging.

[Kalise]

This is because enmity only ever goes up and up and up.

In older games it was a lot more dynamic so it did matter. If you only had a point nity lead then next time the boss hots you. Your going to lose that and then he'll turn to someone else where as a bigger lead would help but decays over time..

Except...

Older games had the exact same mechanic of enmity only ever goes up.

It didn't "Decay". Only certain boss mechanics would force enmity resets (Which would just lead to you doing your pull rotation again. I.e. In games where it mattered, people would stop DPSing and you'd stack your Sunders. In games where it didn't matter, you just spammed your stuff like normal after maybe a taunt)

Even if it DID decay... It would have no effect other than arbitrarily increasing the amount generated to being "X + Y per second" where X is the amount of enmity per second the highest DPS on the list is and Y is the amount of decay.

This is due to the fact that the reason why Enmity is such a non-factor is because the only people that should be getting hit are Tanks. When there's only 1-2 Tanks in a party, then having complex enmity mechanics that can make other people potentially get targeted makes no sense.

For enmity to actually be an interesting mechanic, it would need to be created from the ground up as a unique mechanic as opposed to an independent modifier to justify Tanks doing less DPS/HPS than DPS/Healers (Since that's really the only reason why enmity mechanics actually exist. Otherwise you could simply make it based on DPS/HPS output since that'd have the same effect and then there would be no binary nonsense because as I mentioned, DPS scales infinitely until you one shot an enemy)

Though, it's hard to design something interesting when it still has to focus around the binary system of "Is attacking the Tank" or "Is not attacking the Tank" due to the way Holy Trinity games function.

Games without the Holy Trinity, tend to be able to have more interesting enmity mechanics because it's less important for enemies to be constantly focusing on a singular "Tank" character.

It's one of those things isn't it, everyone says enmity isn't an issue at all, often leaving out the so long as everyone does their bit to manage it factor.

Though... When "So long as everyone does their bit to manage it" happens to be "Press your MP recovery skill on CD to recover MP... Also dump your enmity" "Press Shirk after you Tank Swap" "Press Diversion alongside your other burst CD's" it does heavily mitigate how much it matters.

If it wasn't, then it wouldn't be so easy for SE to simply delete Diversion and give Tanks an enmity toggle while deleting enmity skills and modifiers (Such as on Onslaught)

Not necessarily. Depending on how Floors are calculated or how enmity tools work, you could switch between optimizing Enmity or DPS.
For example, let's imagine that the effect of Provoke is to put you at the beginning of the next floor.

• If you know you won't be able to generate enough enmity to reach that next floor by yourself by the time Provoke is available, you'd better do your DPS rotation, then use Provoke, and start buiding enmity from that next floor.
  
• On the other hand, if you have some skills that would allow you to reach that floor by yourself, you'd keep your enmity rotation, and only use Provoke once you reach the next floor, thus gaining two floors at the same time.

It's still a bit raw, but I'm pretty sure you could polish this kind of mechanics to make enmity more engaging.

So... If I'm understanding this right, you can visualize this as some sort of Limit Break gauge type system. Where each bar is a "Floor" of enmity.

So, Tanks generate enmity and fill up the bars which provide DPS boosts. While DPS fill up the bars and then lose the DPS boosts.

With the idea being that, enmity combos can fill up bars without using Provoke, while Provoke takes you just to the next bar.

So that the idea is that the reason why you wouldn't simply just spam enmity combo's 24/7 is because at some point, maybe, you might hit a point where the bar fills up so slowly that you won't be able to fill it until Provoke is back off CD anyway so you may as well just spam DPS until Provoke is back off CD...

But, somehow, swapping to that DPS combo over the enmity combo won't cause you to generate such a low amount of enmity that you start to lose some of your lead... Which of course wouldn't then mean you just spammed DPS combos 24/7 and Provoked on CD because reasons?

To say nothing about how this system works with Tank swaps? Who's going to get aggro? What happens if both tanks are simply spamming Provoke on CD to generate "Floors"? How will the actual basics of what enmity is supposed to do actually function? Or will this literally be just another completely unrelated mechanic while enmity continues to work as current and be a non-factor?

[Subrias]

Enmity was never an issue, threat is easy to hold, just stay in tank stance and gg. The problem comes in the form of having to also push dps for raid encounters and the stances were just clunky at best. The reason it still exists is because you still have to have tank swaps. I can't think of any currently in ffxiv, but there are some bosses in wow who are immune to taunt and the tanks actually have to find another way to deal with the tank swaps.