Needed RDM tweeks after Media Tour

[Maero]

I am more interested in how the potencies will end up for larger groups of enemies.
Until now Red Mage aoe has been "ok" but take 2 Red Mage's in a 4 man dungeon for example, and stuff does not die all that fast, lol
Which is a bit frustrating. The Red Mage scathe, it will have limited use i would think. It is different being on blm and having scathe, blm has use for it.

Very glad tether is at least removed, that was utter useless. Just used at low levels for kicks.

[SaberMaxwell]

The Red Mage scathe, it will have limited use i would think. It is different being on blm and having scathe, blm has use for it.

RDM has tons of use for a scathe-like ability. Dualcast is nice but until you get that cast off you're stuck in place, and losing one cast because of forced movement on RDM is losing two casts because of dualcast.

I think it will get more use out of its scathe than BLM, who at this point has several options every minute for instant movement if needed. Not to mention most BLM I know would rather clip than scathe.

If you are forced to use a lesser potency move for a higher potency move it's punishment not rewarding. Same goes for positionals. Maybe it's a glass half full / glass half empty scenario, but most people see a potency loss not as a reward for doing good but a punishment for playing bad.

I mean, positionals are a very apt way of putting it. They're a core element of melee DPS, risking positional attacks for higher damage rewards. Fair enough you can look at it as a loss and a punishment instead of a gain; I see it as a gain because of the spirit of the attack since its inception. It's always been a risk (not even just a cramped arena: imagine displacing at the wrong time and soloing a thermionic beam or a morn afah) for a reward (130 potency every 35 seconds isn't exactly a small amount of potency, not counting the instant refresh that manafy gives every 2 minutes).

Which brings me to my next point. If we're looking at it as punishment, they reduced the punishment for not optimizing displacement by 80 potency. Right now, not using it on cooldown costs 130 potency. In the future, using engage over displace will only cost 50 potency.

[Valavaern]

I mean, positionals are a very apt way of putting it. They're a core element of melee DPS, risking positional attacks for higher damage rewards. Fair enough you can look at it as a loss and a punishment instead of a gain; I see it as a gain because of the spirit of the attack since its inception. It's always been a risk (not even just a cramped arena: imagine displacing at the wrong time and soloing a thermionic beam or a morn afah) for a reward (130 potency every 35 seconds isn't exactly a small amount of potency, not counting the instant refresh that manafy gives every 2 minutes).

Which brings me to my next point. If we're looking at it as punishment, they reduced the punishment for not optimizing displacement by 80 potency. Right now, not using it on cooldown costs 130 potency. In the future, using engage over displace will only cost 50 potency.

Noone's arguing that this is isn't an improvement on what we have currently. We're arguing that a BETTER solution is to remove the damage element from Displacement entirely, because this exact issue already came up with BRD and Repelling Shot.

[SaberMaxwell]

Noone's arguing that this is isn't an improvement on what we have currently. We're arguing that a BETTER solution is to remove the damage element from Displacement entirely, because this exact issue already came up with BRD and Repelling Shot.

Meanwhile I'm arguing that, in a job with a relatively simple rotation, letting them have a risk vs reward attack that mandates some battlefield awareness isn't a bad thing. In that vein, I feel that Engagement is the best compromise: you can keep the attack on cooldown, you don't lose as much for not taking the risk, but there's enough to still be rewarded for taking that risk.

[Valavaern]

Meanwhile I'm arguing that, in a job with a relatively simple rotation, letting them have a risk vs reward attack that mandates some battlefield awareness isn't a bad thing.

1)RDM rotation is no simpler than BRD, so should Repelling Shot do damage again?
2)RDM already has an attack like that: it's called their Melee combo.

[SaberMaxwell]

1)RDM rotation is no simpler than BRD, so should Repelling Shot do damage again?
2)RDM already has an attack like that: it's called their Melee combo.

1) RDM rotation is much simpler than Bard's. We're not managing multiple dots and song timers simultaneously while keeping an eye on our MP bar as a substitute for a cooldown timer for foe's requiem; there's no buff snapshotting to pay attention to, and beyond timing embolden with trick for the party's gain RDM's burst doesn't line up with the minute-to-minute bursts. I'm saying this as an advocate that RDM has nuances most people underestimate and one that's cleared both Ultimates to boot. Bard has more to pay attention to at any given time than a RDM will.

2) Most of the party is going to be stacked on the boss' rear a good chunk of the time anyway, so the melee combo doesn't mean much as far as risk goes. That's part of what makes displacement a risk: you're displacing yourself from the party, the mechanics, and the heals.

[Nalien]

Meanwhile I'm arguing that, in a job with a relatively simple rotation, letting them have a risk vs reward attack that mandates some battlefield awareness isn't a bad thing. In that vein, I feel that Engagement is the best compromise: you can keep the attack on cooldown, you don't lose as much for not taking the risk, but there's enough to still be rewarded for taking that risk.

I'd say there's no risk/reward going on here... As I said earlier, it's a skill that ideally you never want to use, which frankly is an absolutely terrible addition for a new level cap... There are basically three situations I see happening;

The arena/encounter has no risk from using Displacement whatsoever, in which case you use Displacement.
The arena/encounter has some small risk from using Displacement, in which case you simply get good and use Displacement.
The arena/encounter is designed in such a way that Displacement is completely unusable, in which case you're forced (read: Punished) to use Engagement.

The second point is I guess where you're seeing the appeal of Engagement, it's for the less "skilled" players and I guess what Yoshida meant when he mentioned player skill impacting Jobs output in the Live Letter. Personally I see the addition of a new skill that I have zero intention of using unless forced to as utterly horrible design. It's a shame too, because "more swordplay" is exactly what I wanted from Red Mage going to Lv80, and Engagement is exactly that, just it shares a cooldown with a superior damage oGCD and is thus a completely worthless addition in my eyes.

[SaberMaxwell]

I'd say there's no risk/reward going on here... As I said earlier, it's a skill that ideally you never want to use, which frankly is an absolutely terrible addition for a new level cap... There are basically three situations I see happening;

The arena/encounter has no risk from using Displacement whatsoever, in which case you use Displacement.
The arena/encounter has some risk from using Displacement, in which case you simply get good and use Displacement.
The arena/encounter is designed in such a way that Displacement is completely unusable, in which case you're forced to use Engagement.

Arenas like o9s and o11s come to mind, where you have the arena sometimes untenable for Displacement but not always (during blaze and level checker); 10s comes to mind, where if Displacement comes off cd during Akh Morn you now don't have to wait until the akh morn is done to use the CD. Better, you can now use Engage to get the thing off CD and then move to your position on the clock. Moments like fresh off of a manafication, you can weave in engagement early into the combo so its off cd sooner than it would be if you waited to the end of the combo to use displacement instead.

Not even just arenas, there are plenty of mechanics that task RDM to be in very specific places where Displacement would get them or others killed.

Like in O8S, Engage would let you keep it off cooldown in tough phases like skulls phase; celestriad phase; trine phase; tower phase; Pasts Forgotten during Big Trine phase. Remember keeping Engage/Displace off CD is a greater gain than just letting the cooldown gestate because you want to wait out for Displacement.

The second point is I guess where you're seeing the appeal of Engagement, it's for the less "skilled" players and I guess what Yoshida meant when he mentioned player skill impacting Jobs output in the Live Letter. Personally I see the addition of a new skill that I have zero intention of using unless forced to as utterly horrible design.

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I see the addition of this skill as a good thing, it keeps to the spirit of the original displacement while compromising with people who don't want to just leave it cooled down because it's too dangerous to use sometimes.