Needed RDM tweeks after Media Tour

[Valavaern]

To donate what though?
I mean, raising can be handled by two healers and a SMN, chain raising is not so much of an advantage in a party (except for the first runs to push a bit further in a fight).
SMN has better support.
SMN and BLM have better DPS.

There's not much left.
Embolden has been pointed as an awkward buff since the beginning : it has not changed.
People felt uncomfortable backfliping : you will still lose potency if you don't.
People wanted either more DPS or more support : nope, here; have a ranged Weapon skill you'll scarcely use.

RDM is a fun job to play, and it will do as well as others in 90% of ShB content, but raiding seems to be a bit more difficult to reach when all the other jobs bring more than RDM.

Pretty much this right here. I had four main things I wanted from RDM in Shadowbringer:

• Verrraise and Vercure before level 50
• Better AoE Damage
• Embolden affecting all damage for everyone
• Displacement removed from damage rotation

So far, we've gotten better AoE, and a bandaid for the Displacement problem. 1.5/4 doesn't feel the best.

[Maero]

I am more interested in how the potencies will end up for larger groups of enemies.
Until now Red Mage aoe has been "ok" but take 2 Red Mage's in a 4 man dungeon for example, and stuff does not die all that fast, lol
Which is a bit frustrating. The Red Mage scathe, it will have limited use i would think. It is different being on blm and having scathe, blm has use for it.

Very glad tether is at least removed, that was utter useless. Just used at low levels for kicks.

[SaberMaxwell]

The Red Mage scathe, it will have limited use i would think. It is different being on blm and having scathe, blm has use for it.

RDM has tons of use for a scathe-like ability. Dualcast is nice but until you get that cast off you're stuck in place, and losing one cast because of forced movement on RDM is losing two casts because of dualcast.

I think it will get more use out of its scathe than BLM, who at this point has several options every minute for instant movement if needed. Not to mention most BLM I know would rather clip than scathe.

If you are forced to use a lesser potency move for a higher potency move it's punishment not rewarding. Same goes for positionals. Maybe it's a glass half full / glass half empty scenario, but most people see a potency loss not as a reward for doing good but a punishment for playing bad.

I mean, positionals are a very apt way of putting it. They're a core element of melee DPS, risking positional attacks for higher damage rewards. Fair enough you can look at it as a loss and a punishment instead of a gain; I see it as a gain because of the spirit of the attack since its inception. It's always been a risk (not even just a cramped arena: imagine displacing at the wrong time and soloing a thermionic beam or a morn afah) for a reward (130 potency every 35 seconds isn't exactly a small amount of potency, not counting the instant refresh that manafy gives every 2 minutes).

Which brings me to my next point. If we're looking at it as punishment, they reduced the punishment for not optimizing displacement by 80 potency. Right now, not using it on cooldown costs 130 potency. In the future, using engage over displace will only cost 50 potency.

[Valavaern]

I mean, positionals are a very apt way of putting it. They're a core element of melee DPS, risking positional attacks for higher damage rewards. Fair enough you can look at it as a loss and a punishment instead of a gain; I see it as a gain because of the spirit of the attack since its inception. It's always been a risk (not even just a cramped arena: imagine displacing at the wrong time and soloing a thermionic beam or a morn afah) for a reward (130 potency every 35 seconds isn't exactly a small amount of potency, not counting the instant refresh that manafy gives every 2 minutes).

Which brings me to my next point. If we're looking at it as punishment, they reduced the punishment for not optimizing displacement by 80 potency. Right now, not using it on cooldown costs 130 potency. In the future, using engage over displace will only cost 50 potency.

Noone's arguing that this is isn't an improvement on what we have currently. We're arguing that a BETTER solution is to remove the damage element from Displacement entirely, because this exact issue already came up with BRD and Repelling Shot.

[SaberMaxwell]

Noone's arguing that this is isn't an improvement on what we have currently. We're arguing that a BETTER solution is to remove the damage element from Displacement entirely, because this exact issue already came up with BRD and Repelling Shot.

Meanwhile I'm arguing that, in a job with a relatively simple rotation, letting them have a risk vs reward attack that mandates some battlefield awareness isn't a bad thing. In that vein, I feel that Engagement is the best compromise: you can keep the attack on cooldown, you don't lose as much for not taking the risk, but there's enough to still be rewarded for taking that risk.

[Valavaern]

Meanwhile I'm arguing that, in a job with a relatively simple rotation, letting them have a risk vs reward attack that mandates some battlefield awareness isn't a bad thing.

1)RDM rotation is no simpler than BRD, so should Repelling Shot do damage again?
2)RDM already has an attack like that: it's called their Melee combo.

[Nalien]

Meanwhile I'm arguing that, in a job with a relatively simple rotation, letting them have a risk vs reward attack that mandates some battlefield awareness isn't a bad thing. In that vein, I feel that Engagement is the best compromise: you can keep the attack on cooldown, you don't lose as much for not taking the risk, but there's enough to still be rewarded for taking that risk.

I'd say there's no risk/reward going on here... As I said earlier, it's a skill that ideally you never want to use, which frankly is an absolutely terrible addition for a new level cap... There are basically three situations I see happening;

The arena/encounter has no risk from using Displacement whatsoever, in which case you use Displacement.
The arena/encounter has some small risk from using Displacement, in which case you simply get good and use Displacement.
The arena/encounter is designed in such a way that Displacement is completely unusable, in which case you're forced (read: Punished) to use Engagement.

The second point is I guess where you're seeing the appeal of Engagement, it's for the less "skilled" players and I guess what Yoshida meant when he mentioned player skill impacting Jobs output in the Live Letter. Personally I see the addition of a new skill that I have zero intention of using unless forced to as utterly horrible design. It's a shame too, because "more swordplay" is exactly what I wanted from Red Mage going to Lv80, and Engagement is exactly that, just it shares a cooldown with a superior damage oGCD and is thus a completely worthless addition in my eyes.

[Nalien]

I'd see it as a good thing were it sitting down in the Lv20~30s along with Veraero II and Verthunder II. It's a Lv72 skill though... For starters, that means literally any encounter you can currently think of where it'd be a "nice addition" due to Displacement being unworkable? You still wont have it in any of those encounters. Same goes for Reprise in all honesty... Both incredibly niche skills with incredibly minor usage that would serve Red Mage much better at a lower level, but instead they're our new and "exciting" skills to obtain while leveling to 80... Granted, the level 72/74 skills across all Jobs tend to be on the lackluster side, but they're all still solid upgrades. Broil III is an upgrade on Broil II. High Jump is an upgrade on Jump. Engagement is not an improvement, every time you use it, for whatever reason you want to come up with, you're sacrificing 50 potency as it currently stands. You can justify it whatever way you like, it is designed to be a skill that you ideally do not use, and that is an utterly horrible addition for the new level cap.

[SaberMaxwell]

That's more on their skill dispersement than on the skill itself. The Red Mage kit as we have it in Stormblood is really good; it's an intuitive gameplay style with a comparatively low floor and a bit of a deceptive ceiling. It presents itself well and does basically everything it needs...except for just a few flaws. This is why when they released the job changes, Red Mage was on the list of jobs seeing relatively little change, just some filling out of its kit. So I agree, their dispersement of skills could use some work, but that's for all jobs across all expansions so far.

Reprise being a niche skill for RDM? RDM in Stormblood is the only caster without on demand instant casts (ironically). Black Mage has Firestarter, Thundercloud, and Triplecast (not counting their actual scathe, because it's enough of a potency loss on its own you might as well clip if you're that desperate). Summoner has Ruin 2--full stop. It's 20 potency less and used for most of their weaving outside of DWT anyway. If Red Mage needs to move--right now, Swift is down and no time for even slidecast--it's got nothing. It drops one cast, and because of the nature of Dualcast, it dropping one cast means it has to drop two casts. E. Reprise is a much needed quality of life in my opinion for Red Mage--not to mention that, due to its low costs, if one wanted to use it to trim their mana to force match with the 60s Trick Bursts, they could probably get away with it. As potencies stand right now, Enchanted Reprise gives roughly 136.4 potency per second and Verstone>Veraero gives 132.9 potency per second, so it's not even an immediate loss the moment-to-moment potency per second.

[Nalien]

Reprise being a niche skill for RDM?

Yes.

If Red Mage needs to move--right now no time for even slidecast--it's got nothing.

See, you just described a niche situation. It's common enough that there's certainly a demand for such a skill, but it's still ultimately a niche. You want to keep Reprise usage to a minimum, it isn't meant to be part of your active rotation, it fills a niche.

I'd love such a skill for something like Construct 7, for example. Shame I wont have that, instead we're having to wait until level 76 for such a basic piece of utility... It's not that it's a bad or unwanted addition, it's just that it doesn't belong at such a level... You know what I'd rather have, that also fills a similar utility? Some more skills like Acceleration, skills that can fill a niche but are also solid additions to your entire rotation. An ability that actives Verstone Ready and Verfire Ready? That'd be neat, though would make me morn the loss of Impactful all the more. A skill that makes your next Dualcast proc last for two casts? That offers similar movement utility to Reprise, but is also completely usable throughout your entire rotation. Those are the kind of "not huge but still interesting" skills I'd expect out of the "simple evolution" Yoshida mentioned, not Scathe 61 levels late...