Thread: Happy Healer in 5.0 thread

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Except the analogy is garbage.

Healers got a uniform healing kit. Tanks got a uniform mitigation kit.
Enmity was completely wiped out from any management from everyone.
Healers got a uniform DPS kit. Tanks have -had- a uniform DPS kit.

Tanks have had a spam combo, a maintenance combo, and now an AoE combo.
Healers have a spam spell, a maintenance spell, and an aoe spell.

The primary difference between tanks come from the way their Ability / Supplemental kit works.
The primary difference between healers come from the way their Ability / Supplemental kit works.

If say Paladin got the same treatment as healers have got over the years then this is what Paladin's skills would look like (from my post in another thread):

Fair point. My reasoning for my analogy was the 3-4 DPS skills is what we have left. A single target (Broil/Stone/Malefic), a DoT (Biolysis/Dia/Combust), an AoE (Art of War/Holy/Gravity) and WHM/AST get the 4th of an Assize or Earthly Star (which have a cooldown) and I guess the one WHM gets from a black lily (which happens at minimum, every 90 secs). So I was giving the benefit of the doubt in that respect. But effectively feels like you're just spamming the same ability over and over, occassionally adding a DoT and occassionally adding an attack from a cooldown.

So we could strip it for Paladin to:
-Perma tank stance, you get to keep hate without effort (which they're kinda getting anyway - except in this scenario, you can't turn it off, we lost our DPS stance a long time ago).
-Fast Blade for single target
-Total Eclipse for AoE
-Goring Blade for DoT

Everything else you do is your tank defensive cool downs, because surviving and taking damage for everybody else is a tank's role.

I think that'd be about as accurate as I think I can make it, to strip Paladin to what healers get.

I could add Circle Of Scorn to balance with Assize/Earthly Star, but I'm a Scholar.

And to add Paladins complained back in 2.0 that the job wasn't interesting, because their rotation as a tank was basically "1, 2, 3" and their tank cool downs and flash, ever since they've evolved to get new DPS rotations, healing mechanics and are generally a lot more fun to play versus 2.0 Paladin. Paladin was a reliable tank and could tank well. It didn't need more from a mechanics point of view, but it did from an enjoyment point of view and they got it. I have PLD to 70 on an alt and I like what they've done with it and have PLD levelled back in 2.0 and could see why people didn't like it.

Originally Posted by Saefinn

If say Paladin got the same treatment as healers have got over the years then this is what Paladin's skills would look like (from my post in another thread):

You know what.

Fine. That's fair.

I personally don't find A->A->A->A less engaging than A->A->B->A->A->B, but I understand why some would. Paladin is honestly the second worst example I'd use for engaging gameplay progression, losing out to Warrior.

Originally Posted by Saefinn

If say Paladin got the same treatment as healers have got over the years then this is what Paladin's skills would look like (from my post in another thread):



And to add Paladins complained back in 2.0 that the job wasn't interesting, because their rotation as a tank was basically "1, 2, 3" and their tank cool downs and flash, ever since they've evolved to get new DPS rotations, healing mechanics and are generally a lot more fun to play versus 2.0 Paladin. Paladin was a reliable tank and could tank well. It didn't need more from a mechanics point of view, but it did from an enjoyment point of view and they got it. I have PLD to 70 on an alt and I like what they've done with it and have PLD levelled back in 2.0 and could see why people didn't like it.

Yeah. PLD still isn't a complicated job but it's gotten more fun with every expansion. HW gave us proper dps combos and clemency. SB gave us requiscat/holy spirit.

In dungeons our aoe currently is CoS > Flash (x however many times you need) then spam total eclipse. Now we're getting a two part aoe combo and aoe spells for a burst phase. It's going to be a lot more fun dealing with aoe in dungeons in ShB than now even if the 'tanking' part of 'gather mobs, establish enmity, aoe' isn't really changing. And the single target rotation is getting some touch ups too with atonement and the new spell phase finisher.

And with healers something to keep in mind too is they still have to dps for quests and solo instances, and simplifying their dps toolkit too much will make those as well as older group instances more dull when there just isn't any healing needed at the moment.

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yeah. PLD still isn't a complicated job but it's gotten more fun with every expansion. HW gave us proper dps combos and clemency. SB gave us requiscat/holy spirit.

In dungeons our aoe currently is CoS > Flash (x however many times you need) then spam total eclipse. Now we're getting a two part aoe combo and aoe spells for a burst phase. It's going to be a lot more fun dealing with aoe in dungeons in ShB than now even if the 'tanking' part of 'gather mobs, establish enmity, aoe' isn't really changing. And the single target rotation is getting some touch ups too with atonement and the new spell phase finisher.

And with healers something to keep in mind too is they still have to dps for quests and solo instances, and simplifying their dps toolkit too much will make those as well as older group instances more dull when there just isn't any healing needed at the moment.

Aye, that is one of the other issues. Honestly, if their intention is to put a great emphasis on healing over DPS, then they can make the content more challenging for healers, which they may well be doing for Shadowbringers. Because if the content is making the healers heal more then they are DPSing less. But there is all of the pre-existing content (for new healers, levelling roulettes, trial roulettes etc.) and pressumably the game's solo content too.

This thread needs to be promoted more.

I am so happy to see positive feedback finally instead of complaints. Thank you guys for your awesome positivity.

Originally Posted by guardin

here we go again. finally had a thread of happiness and the true player base feelings for healing and we have that one guy that wants to bring the doom and gloom about innovation and homogenisation that doesnt even exist. The only thing that needs innovation is dungeon design, the open world and graphics.

Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it what the "true" player base feels. Those of us that actually know how to use our toolkit can keep a party up with oodles of GCDs and MP to spare, more healing options aren't needed if you utilize what you already have. More options won't change if you can or cannot do that.

I need to get my hands on the jobs to know how i feel about them.

I know exactly what WHM is going to be like, because it's really not changing much. a few more instant gcd abilities and another nuke, still king of MP management. Nothing really important to note about it.

I'm really just curious to know what scholar MP management will be like, if they're going to adjust the MP cost of abilities to make up for the lack of energy drain and the Aetherflow trait. I don't really care about their dps rotation because if i want to dps like that, i just queue as summoner for a better time. I am glad to see that there will be other uses for the fairy gauge instead of one ability.

AST has just been meh to me lately, and that's not changing with anything i've seen.

Originally Posted by guardin

here we go again. finally had a thread of happiness and the true player base feelings for healing and we have that one guy that wants to bring the doom and gloom about innovation and homogenisation that doesnt even exist. The only thing that needs innovation is dungeon design, the open world and graphics.

Indeed, here we go again, another troll who’s thinly veiled as a white knight who’s happy to shout down other players concerns whilst spouting his own opinions as “true”. Not hypocritical at all. I’ve never once said other people’s opinions aren’t true just because I disagree with them. Maybe you should be a bit more open minded. Without the so called “doom and gloom”, aka constructive feedback, we wouldn’t have achieved any changes we’ve previously asked for, that’s how change works, you see. The forums aren’t an echo chamber, at least the OP knows that and acknowledges that, maybe take a leaf from his book before trolling.

If SE wants to increase damage going out to make healing more engaging, and make it so you need to spend more gcds on healing and less on dps, I'm fine with that in theory. But I have some concerns.

A. They're going to have to get it right, and this sort of rebalancing, if they're even actually doing it, could cause issues if they go too far with it or don't go far enough and nothing really changes.
B. This likely won't be easily applied to old content, leaving 1-70 content as it is now but with healers having fewer offensive options.
C. Healers still need to dps in quests and solo instance duties, and having that boil down to 'dot nuke nuke nuke dot nuke nuke nuke' could get really tedious.

Obviously healers don't and shouldn't have dps rotations as complex as actual dps, but I worry that they be going a bit too far. Maybe it'll work out in the end but I'm not sure. If this all works out that'll be great, but until we actually see it in action I'm a bit nervous.