QOL change for War for ShB - Onslaught - No not asking for removal of gauge cost

[Danelo]

Wheres paladins gap? Why arent these posts flooding in their threads? Because war players arent the only people with 'false perceptions'. You talk of the perceptions of others as flawed, yet never turn that discerning eye into the mirror.

PLD's gap? While I'm sure they have some deficiency, I don't know what it is off the top of my head bc it isn't my main and I care only that it is balanced within the scope of all tanks...

I don't do these post in PLD threads mainly bc I haven't found them to be the ones posting antagonistic remarks in DRK threads. It may be because the vast majority of long time PLDs remember rougher times when they couldn't block magic and they were a third wheel to dark/war comp. Tell me about your struggling times.. A real length of time. If you are going to say from release of stormblood to patch 4.2 then you can sit down now.

[Izsha]

So you wont comment on Pld because it's not your main, but war isnt your main either. So what's going on? Dont you want it to be balanced with all tanks? Even though right now it is running away with dps and support over every other tank based on current build? Yet you feel free tocomment about war underthe same circumstances? Yet wars are are the only group of people blinded?

This is literally just petty vengence not the "good of the tank community" when your reasoning is based on how long you 'struggled'. The point is to achieve playability, fun, and balance not a tit for tat on thes struggle bus. Let's just say I've done my fair share, but you arent interested in that because war. If I told you i have done my time struggling would it change your opinion of warriors? Nope.

It doesnt matter that most people play more than one tank. It doesnt matter that people have been on the top or bottom in other games and have empathy for that situation. The only thing that matters is that war needs to go down.

You have made a caricature of people who play war when most have no connection to your fabrication you have created based on layer upon layer of baseles assumption.

This problem began the moment you gave a group of human players an identity based on their enjoyment of playing a digital mmo job class. Can you really make the same type of broad sweeping generalizations about the PLAYERS who pla drk ot pld? Of course not because they are a varied group with different interests and priorities. Lumping war players into some singular hivemind boogeyman that is trying to consume all drks is utterly ridiculous. As if people playing an ungabunga job like war are coordinated rofl.

[Danelo]

You asked "Wheres paladins gap?" and so I responded to that...

I would comment on PLD too but, like I said, "I don't do these post in PLD threads mainly bc I haven't found them to be the ones posting antagonistic remarks in DRK threads." Don't mischaracterize me or take me out of context to fit your preconceived notion of me.

If you had done your time struggling as a WAR class, and played at that time, then yes, it might change my opinion of those select few WAR posters on DRK threads. But ask me if I truly believe those fitting into that category would post such obtuse comments. No.

Regarding "taking warriors down" all I heard was deflection. If you can't empathize because your class has always been on top and appears to be Yoshi's love child then just admit it and move on. BUT I Absolutely disagree with you're characterization of my mindset. Try to find one post that I have talking about WAR skills and how they need to be nerfed (because I play warrior too). On the contrary, even when I talk about how disappointing of a skill LD is I say NOT to nerf Holmgang or Hallowed Ground.

I can post here some of the troll-like post from WAR mains on the DRK threads regarding LD by way of example. I can also post the responses by other WAR mains who refute the previous post. I believe there are a select few who fit the category I laid out in my first post here, but they do exist and aren't boogeymen.

Sure, there will always players of any given job and players that play all tanks that troll all threads, but WARs have a reputation for it. And that idea isn't plucked from thin air or from my post turning everyone against WAR.

DRKs are heavily complaining because we learned our lesson last time from WARs. For some of those that play WAR to come to our thread and make uneducated and obtuse comments which is less than productive to say the least.

[Danelo]

Meanwhile, I see DRK mains, whine about Warriors in Warrior thread.

DRK mains whine about Warriors in DRK threads.

DRK mains whine about Warriors in PLD threads.

You know what I don't see a lot of? DRK mains trying to actually ask for changes for DRK's in threads.

Wait, DRKs complain about lack luster aspects of the job and no identity? They compare themselves to other jobs they'll be competing against for a spot in comps? Hold the presses. Nothing new here. As far as some WARs offering poorly educated, quasi-antagonistic opinions on a job they don't main in a DRK specific thread, go for it I guess. Don't be surprised when these post come up here in response though. That tends to give SE a slanted view of what the community wants more than what DRKs do I believe. DRKs just say, "you guys have this and this, we have no answer to this, its a great advantage to a given comp." If that is the worst we do, lobbying for greater equity then I don't know where to go from here with this back and forth.

Like some of the WARs in the DRK threads I hope you guys get what you want but I hope even more that all classes are ACTUALLY viable and players aren't forced into specific jobs to match a meta.

Kalise, as far as DRK mains not asking for changes to DRK, you and I both know that is not true. I've seen you're post on the DRK threads next to proposed changes -disingenuous at best and 5 pinocchios awarded sir or ma'am.

[Izsha]

If you can find a buncha warriors making accusations about the PLAYERS of other jobs be my guest. There is a lot of "wars are blind/selfish/entitled/blah blah(I believe you used 'brats' most recently) from darks wondering into threads about war. That's not disagreement. That is attacking an entire group of people based on the jobthey play just like you and lyth in this very thread. Pop in, attack the playerbase as a unit, indiscriminately. Then turn right around and feign hero saving the community from itself. Truly heroic.

A warrior going to a drk thread and saying "I dont think dark mind is a bad skill because x,y,z reasons (as i recently did for example) is not attacking dark players. Its presenting an opinion about a skill. Most notably there is no ad hominem in commenting on a skill in a game.

Now if I posted in every dark thread, regardless of topic to rant about how "dark players are whiney people that wont stop crying until HW dark is reborn" I would be doing what you and lyth and a number of other people have been doing in war threads for 2 years.

If you cant see that difference then you really are the blind one.

[Kalise]

Wait, DRKs complain about lack luster aspects of the job and no identity? They compare themselves to other jobs they'll be competing against for a spot in comps?

Is that what they're calling it now? When DRK's are often just "WAAAH WAR's get everything WAAAH WAR's are the best WAAAH Doesn't matter what we ask for, only WAR's get listened too WAAAH"

Since that's what I see the most.

As far as some WARs offering poorly educated, quasi-antagonistic opinions on a job they don't main in a DRK specific thread, go for it I guess.

You know people are allowed to post about classes that aren't their main right?

People can and do also play multiple classes you know.

I personally play most of the classes in the game. I've leveled them all up to level 70 and I've done a bunch of Duties and Eureka on them all.

Just because someone mains a certain job doesn't mean they have no experience on other jobs which would disqualify them from being able to comment on them (They're just less likely to be initimately familiar with them, but again, not impossible for them to still be as knowledgeable as someone who mains a job, outside maybe Savage/Ultimate experience)

Don't be surprised when these post come up here in response though.

At this point, I expect salty DRK mains in any thread on the forums. And I mean ANY thread. I half expect to go into the DoL subforum and see DRK's crying about WAR's.

That just seems to be the thing to do these days.

But again, people can opine on things. Why does that make it acceptable to go into off-topic posts crying about how OP WAR is and how WAR's aren't allowed to ask for anything?

Why do discussion about WAR's have to be shut down? Why not just... You know... Ignore the discussion as it doesn't pertain to the class(es) you care about and focus instead on discussing the class(es) you care about?

DRKs just say, "you guys have this and this, we have no answer to this, its a great advantage to a given comp." If that is the worst we do, lobbying for greater equity then I don't know where to go from here with this back and forth.

Lol no they don't. They go "WAR is so OP!!! WAR too stronk!! SE plz nerf WAR!!"

Maybe once in a blue moon they mention something about their actual job like "Living Dead sucks.... COMPARED TO HOLMGANG OMG WAR SO OP NERF PLX NERF NERF OP WAR!!"

Like some of the WARs in the DRK threads I hope you guys get what you want but I hope even more that all classes are ACTUALLY viable and players aren't forced into specific jobs to match a meta.

I hope everyone gets what they want too. I also hope that WAR's don't have to battle through a bunch of hate any time they want to discuss their job.

Also, obligatory "Every class IS viable" and "DRK was used in World First clears"

Kalise, as far as DRK mains not asking for changes to DRK, you and I both know that is not true.

It happens. But inconsistently. Also, a significant number of threads I see about DRK asking for changes to DRK quickly devolve into WAR hate threads...

As I say, the recent times being an exception, where people are actually discussing DRK after the Media Tour information was revealed. As far as I'm aware, most (If not all) of those threads are still talking about DRK. Which is great, I hope this continues.

Since, after all, DRK's have shown that crying about WAR doesn't help at all. In fact, maybe all the crying about WAR's is part of the reason that Delirium got changed into an IR clone?

I've seen you're post on the DRK threads next to proposed changes -disingenuous at best and 5 pinocchios awarded sir or ma'am.

I post on DRK threads about DRKs. Who'd have thunk?

Almost as if I actually care about the job getting the care and changes it deserves instead of crying about other jobs that aren't DRK in those threads?

[Danelo]

If you can find a buncha warriors making accusations about the PLAYERS of other jobs be my guest. There is a lot of "wars are blind/selfish/entitled/blah blah(I believe you used 'brats' most recently) from darks wondering into threads about war.

A warrior going to a drk thread and saying "I dont think dark mind is a bad skill because x,y,z reasons (as i recently did for example) is not attacking dark players. Its presenting an opinion about a skill. Most notably there is no ad hominem in commenting on a skill in a game.

Now if I posted in every dark thread, regardless of topic to rant about how "dark players are whiney people that wont stop crying until HW dark is reborn" I would be doing what you and lyth and a number of other people have been doing in war threads for 2 years.

If you cant see that difference then you really are the blind one.

"Entitled brats" was the term I used since you don't like using quotes directly in your responses so they are easier twist. But lets do this, I'm psyched.

Oh and it was absolutely an attack, but wait for the context before they tears come down your cheek like they did with triggered Kalise "Is that what they're calling it now? When DRK's are often just "WAAAH WAR's get everything WAAAH WAR's are the best WAAAH Doesn't matter what we ask for, only WAR's get listened too WAAAH." (infantile and churlish). Oh and... "I post on DRK threads about DRKs. Who'd have thunk? Almost as if I actually care about the job getting the care and changes it deserves instead of crying about other jobs that aren't DRK in those threads?" … I know the point was hard to deduce but it's that you are a liar based on that comment and your response was also full of inaccuracies at the very least. That should suffice as my response to you, Kalise.

Anyway. I said before that "some WAR mains". I further segmented the WAR community by saying "I don't blame the vast majority of WARs for that mentality." before calling the outliers "entitled brats". But even that doesn't give my comments context enough. Go back and read them and you may not be butthurt. But if the shoe fits wear it. Find something that wasn't mainstream in that comment. And hey, if you don't like it, go pound sand. Your feelings contradicting with my facts don't make them any less true.

I don't have a problem with people bringing reasoned arguments to the forums (that's what they are there for).

As far as Lyth and I, we have no affiliation there Alex Jones.

I haven't been posting for two years. Note the join date and the number of post. Another thing you lack accuracy on.

Point was made and I'm done responding. Better get back to the original intent of the thread, eh?

[Kalise]

(infantile and churlish).

Just like the DRK players I'm referring to when they provide responses that are genuinely like that.

… I know the point was hard to deduce but it's that you are a liar based on that comment and your response was also full of inaccuracies at the very least.

Care to elaborate?

I had not lied. My having posted in DRK threads about DRK is not me lying.

I mean, at best, I can assume you're responding to when I said:

"You know what I don't see a lot of? DRK mains trying to actually ask for changes for DRK's in threads."

While misreading where I state "What I don't see a lot of" to mean "What I don't see any of"

Of course, just accuse me of lying and making vague comments like "Your response is full of inaccuracies"

Since, I can literally provide you with evidence should you wish. I can go through a ton of pages of the Tank sub-forum and provide you with links to threads where they get derailed by DRK's crying about WAR's

As far as Lyth and I, we have no affiliation there Alex Jones.

I haven't been posting for two years. Note the join date and the number of post. Another thing you lack accuracy on.

Instead of pointing out "Inaccuracies" you may want to put more effort into reading and understanding posts before you denounce them of being inaccurate.

Izsha was referencing a specific subset of players (You and Lyth included) performing a certain action throughout a period of time (2 years)

They weren't saying EVERYONE in that subset of players was performing the action for that entire period of time. Nor that those subset of players were related or even knew each other.

Just that there has been a number of players, whom over the period of time, have done the thing (I.e. Crying about WAR instead of actually discussing the topic at hand)

Point was made and I'm done responding. Better get back to the original intent of the thread, eh?

Of course, you've already helped curb the discussion. Like several DRK mains have done with many threads over the past 2 years. What better time to finish responding to people who are sick and tired of that BS.

But sure... Lets try and do something reasonably on topic, something that literally none of your posts in this thread have been (You know this is a thread about Onslaught? None of your posts have mentioned it at all, let alone entertained any discussion with the OP or prior posters that were actually discussing the topic)

As far as Onslaught goes...

I'd say just make it the same as the other 3 Tanks gap closers. 2 charges, 30s CD.

Pulling with it would then depend on if you had Trick Attack being used within 30s of the pull or not (For WAR's it would also want to be considered in you'd be using IR within 30s or not too, as you'd want to 2x Onslaught during IR)

If you can wait out the 30s then to line them up with burst CD's then you'd be fine to pull with it. Or you can just take the DPS loss and do it anyway.

If Onslaught was on a 30s CD, a WAR would be able to do 3x Onslaughts between IR and still get the 2x charges for IR.

Which would end up being a preferable situation than having a gap closer you generally don't want to use because of how FC usage is becoming more impactful due to Inner Chaos and thus Infuriate CDR mechanics.

Of course the other alternative is to let Onslaught also have CDR for Infuriate too, which would then bypass the issue surrounding trying to time 2x Infuriates for burst CD's such as Trick Attack.

(Though, this is also highlighting how Trick Attack is somewhat detrimental for the game when it's going to be the major thing that all CD's are focused around. Without Trick Attack, then a Warrior can actually just Infuriate almost whenever, since many rDPS buffs are Crit/DH chance which Inner Chaos doesn't care about. It's only when Trick Attack/Brotherhood/Embolden enter the mix where you start having to align Infuriates for these skills...)

On another note too, is that because Nascent Chaos upgrades FC into IC you can't even leverage the 30s duration to help with aligning the 2x IC's for these CD's since you'll still want to be using FC's to not overcap your Gauge (On the flip side, if IC was a separate skill, then you'd be trying to work on getting 3x IC during the buffs by having that 30s extra CD in combination with IC and IR providing CDR procs...)

Essentially, the more I look at it, the more that ShB WAR looks pretty messy in terms of design. Nothing seems to have a clear sense of flow. The only consistent thing seems to be how broken Holmgang is and how bad Direct Hit is...

[NyneSwordz]

Lyth,

You came in here offering to "assist" people with their sense of shame, calling me "disgusting" for merely bringing up a war issue.

I mean the record speaks for itself. You speak of selfishness, but isn't selfish to shout other players down because you somehow believe someone bringing up war issue is somehow taking away resources from issues you think are important?

What's next, are you gonna rail against crafters or bug reporters because you think that takes away from issues you care about?

Talk about selfishness and entitlement.

How about we all agree that the forums belong to SE and every player has a right to raise whatever issue they feel matters to them and not start calling people "disgusting" or trying to shout them down and shame them?

[NyneSwordz]

...

Thanks Kalise for the breakdown. This was the sort of feedback I was hoping to get with this post!