Rambling tank thoughts going into 5.0

[whiskeybravo]

I know we've got a few threads going around but wanted to pen down some of my thoughts and encourage others to do so as well.

PLD:
This job actually seems fine TBH. HP effecting Spirits Within potency is somewhat questionable after removing it from Upheaval. Sheltron may end up being busted at higher item levels as PLD block damage increases.

WAR:
Nascent Flash being tied to Raw is questionable. Quite frankly it would've made more sense to have Nascent Flash replace Inner Beast but include the option to simply be given to a target at reduced potency. The self heal seems rather inconsequential. Onslaught needs Beast gauge cost removed, or potency increase to 225. As it stands 20 BG is worth a minimum of 216 potency.

DRK:
Rework not enough. Remove the DoT from GNB and give it to DRK. Dark Missionary needs to reduce all damage 15%, not just magic. Dark Mind should have 2 effects like Thrill of Battle or Camaflouge, since fluff mitigation was neutered, or apply to all damage types. LD needs to be re-evaluated in some capacity, either make it stronger/less punishing to justify 5 min CD or lower the CD to justify using it more freely.

GNB:
Camaflouge parry buff is questionable, 10% flat reduction is nice but CD may be a bit too long. Need to see this in action to gather much else, it's sounding like it may need some help in DPS but really it's too early to tell without getting our hands on it. Auto shield from combo seems really great.

---- Other thoughts

I find it incredibly odd that GNB gets 3 combos and 2 DoTs while DRK was stripped of everything but Souleater combo, there is more than enough room for DRK to get Scourge back. And please stop with the physical/magic damage type separation, we tank both types in all the different content.

Missing a lot of our old fluff mitigation CDs, which is a bit sad, although I suppose it's somewhat offset by constant 20% damage reduction. It's just going to be hard to "feel" how effective the new tank stance trait is, since we won't really get to see how much damage we'd be taking without it.. Nor will we have any interaction with it (which honestly I may just value higher since WAR doesn't have a lot of oGCDs, fluff mitigation was practically all we had to press between our attacks >.>)

Other than that it's seeming fairly well balanced, just a few minor tweaks to help bring the tanks more in line with one another.

[Bright-Flower]

With DRK, didn't it just have two combos, and the one that was removed was the enmity combo? The same thing happened to PLD really, we just have the one combo chain except with two different finishers so I guess it's slightly different, then the aoe combo.

Overall PLD is looking FANTASTIC as far as I'm concerned. I don't play the other tanks enough to really have the big picture grasp of them though.

[MaraD_]

I think out of the 4 tanks, the one that screams DoTs is DRK. (I dont liek DoTs as much as self buffs, but I agree with them being the one with DoTs, not GNB)

But some food for thought.
WAR specializes in mitigating TBs. (based on frequency/availability of CDs)
PLD specializes in handling raid wide dmg/utility.
GNB and DRK are in the middle, but GNB being slightly better than DRK, due to the limitation of magical dmg, and GNB adding a weak 150 potency shield on top of its 15%.
I forsee DRKs getting a slight buff. (why not 15% magical, and 5% physical, at the LEAST for those moves? Thats STILL not enough, but its SOMETHING)

DRK needing heals (and not shields) after living dead, makes GNB and WARs heals very useful as OTs, and PLD not as much. (THough one can argue PLDs better raid utility than DRK can be a different way to help)

All the tanks help WAR/GNBs invulnerability CDs, so thats always good.
GNBs invulnerability being 7mins while being worse than hallowed ground seems odd. It should at LEAST be 6mins. Even if that wont actually matter in real content, as it has to line up with boss mechanics, it would at least FEEL like it had a reason to have its current downside.

Thats my current thoughts for now.
(other than WARs should have started off with their 2nd AoE, and Overpower comboed off of it instead. But thats a minor gripe. Also the new AoE should have been Steel Cyclone, rather than something new, and removing steel cyclone with decimate)

[whiskeybravo]

With DRK, didn't it just have two combos, and the one that was removed was the enmity combo? The same thing happened to PLD really, we just have the one combo chain except with two different finishers so I guess it's slightly different, then the aoe combo.

Yea, but they used to have 3 combo chains + a DoT in HW. And MP management. So I think DRKs can handle a simple DoT. I guess technically they do have a DoT in Salted Earth, but still, basically all they did was replace Dark Arts spam with Souleater spam lol. It's lv50 PLD all over again. If we can't handle more than one combo chain at level 80 it's time to uninstall. But hey, I don't main DRK so maybe I'm wrong and they don't want or need another combo line or dot at all.

[Nivarea]

PLD seems really good. Being a bad caster I like the removal of casting times for Requiescat windows and the addition of a gap closer means it's as mobile as other tanks now. Its defensive and utility kit got some buffs (Shelltron, Sentinel) and some nerfs (Cover) but it's still really solid. No problem, natural extension of SB PLD which was already really good.

WAR will also still be good. There is a bit of optimisation thinking back with Inner Chaos in order to be sure to not use it during IR Window and use it in buff windows not covered by IR. Same playstyle otherwise, still extremely good defensively, WAR will probably be a powerhouse again this extension.

GNB seems really fun playstyle wise. It is apparently a bit underpowered as of the Media-tour build, so I hope they'll turn the Potency/recast numbers fine by the time ShB is out. But I like the idea of the ammo combo with oGCD between each skill. The dots seems underwhelming, they need some tune up, in damage or duration. Superbolide is weird, it's flat out a worst HG, and Camouflage might need a bit of an up. Otherwise, it got great utility, Heart of Light and Heart of Stone seems awesome. I'm really interrested in playing it.

DRK seems like it's again the problem child of the Tanks. There are good ideas in the news skills (Edge/Flood, the Clone in a way, the concept of the new Darkside), but I don't really like the direction SE seems to go, by giving the job an IR-like ability in Delirium and the fact that the job will feel a lot slower. I would like another combo finisher, whatever its effect is (could be a SKS buff, a dot, more MP, just something). I also basically want to still have the biggest APM out off all the tanks like in HW and SB. I hate the nerf of Blood Weapon, I will miss the Sks and how even autos had mana regen. The clone seems a bit boring and has no interraction whatsoever with us, not even mana/blood gain, but it looks good, it just need more tunning. Defensive wise, it's similar to SB, it's more than fine, the nerf of Dark Mind is compensated by the buff of Tbn, just that their group shield being only magic is a bit disappointing but not catastrophic.
So... Yeah, DRK still need more tune up I think. I will play it for the msq, in order to make my mind abouy it tho, it has been my main since HW and I want to try it to confirm/infirm my feelings about this new kit.

[Kalise]

WAR:
Nascent Flash being tied to Raw is questionable.

Not really. It makes perfect sense.

Paladin can spend gauge on themselves via OPtron OR on someone else via Intervention.

Dork Knight can use TBN on themselves OR on someone else.

Gunbreaker can use Heart of Stone on themselves OR on someone else.

Warrior can use Raw Intuition to protect themselves OR use Nascent Flash to protect someone else.

Warrior simply has the upside of getting some self-healing when using Nascent Flash to boot.

Onslaught needs Beast gauge cost removed, or potency increase to 225. As it stands 20 BG is worth a minimum of 216 potency.

I'd argue it needs more than that.

Literally compare it to every other Tanks gap closer:

Paladin: Intervene - 30s CD - 2 Charges - No cost - Deals 200 potency damage.

Dork Knight: Plunge - 30s CD - 2 Charges - No cost - Deals 200 potency damage.

Gunbreaker: Rough Divide - 30s CD - 2 Charges - No cost - Deals 200 potency damage.

Warrior: Onslaught - 10s CD - 20 Beast Gauge cost - Deals 100 potency damage.

Warrior's one not only costs resources, unlike every other Tank. But also deals half the damage that every other tank's gap closer does. Its only benefit is it has a shorter cooldown (But also doesn't have the capacity to store 2 charges) but seriously, unless there's going to be a major focus on moving about the place where Warrior is somehow going to edge out by being able to dash every 10s (Provided they even have the chance to generate enough gauge to maintain that amount of movement) Onslaught is vastly inferior to every other tank whom has identical skills.

DRK:
Dark Missionary needs to reduce all damage 15%, not just magic. Dark Mind should have 2 effects like Thrill of Battle or Camaflouge, since fluff mitigation was neutered, or apply to all damage types.

Yeah...

Dark Missionary should simply be an AoE TBN - Possibly at reduced effectiveness to maintain the ~15% AoE mitigation thing (Basically, being a version of Divine Veil/Shake It Off for DRK). Like, why the job that literally has a focus on using a shield on themselves/someone else doesn't simply just have an AoE shield while WARRIOR does I have no idea...

Dark Mind is a tricky one. If you make it both damage types, then it'd essentially just be a second Rampart (It's CD would go up to 90s to match Thrill/Camo)... Maybe make it something more DRK themed? Like DR plus a shield? Or heck, scrap it and make it into a Sole Survivor replacement that allows you to instantly regain 20% HP and some amount of MP. Given that DRK's are annoyed that their self healing is near non-existent as well as questionable MP generation... Kill two birds with one stone and simply bring back the HP + MP gains that SS used to provide.

GNB:
Camaflouge parry buff is questionable, 10% flat reduction is nice but CD may be a bit too long.

Camouflage really does seem odd... Like... We all know how fantastic and great Anticipation is... Camouflage is only 20% extra parry chance on top of Anticipation which makes that aspect of it suspect at best...

Then after that it's just a worse Rampart. Where Rampart guarantees 20% reduction. Camouflage is 50% chance for 30% reduction and 50% chance for 10% reduction (Averaging out to 20% reduction sure... Until any enemy that casts a spell appears because lulparry)

Why not just change it into 100% parry chance and ability to parry spells? Then it's still effectively 20% mitigation, but slightly weaker than Rampart because with Rampart you can RNG Parry stuff. While also maintaining the theme it's going for (Which is seemingly that you're deflecting all incoming attacks like some sort of badass protagonist)

[whiskeybravo]

Not really. It makes perfect sense.

Paladin can spend gauge on themselves via OPtron OR on someone else via Intervention.

Dork Knight can use TBN on themselves OR on someone else.

Gunbreaker can use Heart of Stone on themselves OR on someone else.

Warrior can use Raw Intuition to protect themselves OR use Nascent Flash to protect someone else.

Warrior simply has the upside of getting some self-healing when using Nascent Flash to boot.

The main reason I consider it questionable is rather silly, I suppose, because it's 2 buttons instead of one. And because quite frankly Raw Intuition, minus the auto-crit from flank/rear, was at least a mitigation CD compared to Thrill/Conv. Mitigation > healing bonus when it doesn't affect half the heals anyways. And I know Thrill/Conv were used together most of the time, it just seems really odd considering it went from PLD shared action to a WAR exclusive action. We lost the HP/healing bonus from a stance we didn't use to begin with and they gave it back to us.

It also kind of screws WAR up even more for level synced content. Berserk was bad enough but now you have to wait until level 56 for Raw Intuition to gain an effect you used to get at level 35. And this is minor, I know, but still makes me question their thought process. IMO they should've kept the DR on IB until it upgraded to FC, and introduced Raw around the same time as FC to offset the difference. Or even better, they could've just left that mechanic in place all the way through and had FC give us the damage reduction buff. I mean, I don't think it would change that much since we aren't likely to forgo a burst window to save for chain mitigation, and then Nascent could've just been our support (which would have to cost gauge to be balanced). Or even as a third option, Raw upgrades to Nascent which could be used on self or party.

Those are mostly the reasons I find Nascent Flash questionable.

[Kalise]

The main reason I consider it questionable is rather silly, I suppose, because it's 2 buttons instead of one.

No different than PLD having OPtron and Intervention as different buttons.

It also means that you can try and use Nascent Flash purely for the self healing too. Which, if we get more Eureka-esk content, will no doubt be as invaluable as Storm's Path being based on damage and Steel Cyclone is now (RIP in pepperoni both of those features...)

Mitigation > healing bonus when it doesn't affect half the heals anyways. And I know Thrill/Conv were used together anyways, it just seems really odd considering it went from PLD shared action to a WAR exclusive action.

Probably would help if you didn't think of it as WAR now taking Conv but rather WAR regaining their Defiance boost in skill form. Since, for a while, +HP and +Healing has been their defensive bonus for being in Tank Stance.

(Also, I'm odd and generally just use Thrill > Shake It Off because then it's just a 20% heal with a 12% shield and healers won't end up wasting any skills healing up the superfluous extra HP that Thrill gives)

[whiskeybravo]

No different than PLD having OPtron and Intervention as different buttons.

To be fair, I never liked that aspect of it either. Probably because I'm a controller user.

It also means that you can try and use Nascent Flash purely for the self healing too. Which, if we get more Eureka-esk content, will no doubt be as invaluable as Storm's Path being based on damage and Steel Cyclone is now (RIP in pepperoni both of those features...)

Well, this is another reason I find it questionable. Aside from the whopping 2 GCDs worth of self healing (granted, they will be CDH >.>) it seems so silly to toss the support on a party member that isn't even going to need it just to get 2, maybe 3, GCDs worth of self heals. PLD wouldn't toss Intervention on a random party member during a large pull, DRK wouldn't toss TBN on anyone but himself in that situation either. GNB will probably regen himself.

Again, it's all pretty minor nitkpicking from me.. But nitpick I will lol. I think the heal makes it more controversial than if it didn't have it. All long time WARs remember the Bloodbath nostalgia, to see self heals on Nascent like that just makes me think "but whhhyyyyy"

(Also, I'm odd and generally just use Thrill > Shake It Off because then it's just a 20% heal with a 12% shield and healers won't end up wasting any skills healing up the superfluous extra HP that Thrill gives)

At least that's better than strictly using it to buff Upheaval

[Kolsykol]

Am I the only person on the planet who actually enjoyed Dark Arts, lol?
Pretty much everyone else playing DRK seems to hate it.