Shadowbringer: Summoner Changes Discussion

[Elgeron]

I can't think of a single class in the history of the game that has had to pump out as many oGCDs as Summoner has to in ShB, it blows MCH and Bard, the Multitasking champions of SB and HW, out of the water on density. This type of playstyle would be fine on a class intended to handle it, like Bard, Machinist, or Dancer. But it's not fine on caster DPS.

But why not? What is wrong with a creating a busy caster? Seriously asking, as I'm not that knowledgeable. To me, this iteration of SMN is being very fun. While it is true I was having issues at the beginning, but I can already feel myself improving and becoming better, with less and less tunnel vision. I feel like SMN gives me a goal to work towards, and I'm each possible moment seeking to practice and improve in real combat situation. The fast pace of the class is mind blowing, it feel almost every second there is something to do, and I find this stimulating. The recast time seem to go very well with each other, usually is very easy to make different abilities synch with each other without putting too much though, letting you focus more on execution rather that planning. Is different from the other two casters and its a play style I'm enjoying greatly. Changing from summon to summon fast to adapt has been also quite enjoyable for me.

Said this, some of the changes proposed in this thread seemed interesting, some of yours too, but I would be lying if I said I want for the class to become less "busy". Still, have to reach max level, so perhaps my perception will change then.

the class is just absolute insanity

Funny enough, is the reason I love it. To me it feels like I'm melting the enemy on a barrage of spells and Egis attacks.

[Gallus]

At least half the SMNs I have come across so far couldn't even figure out that Garuda is meant for trash pulls and Ifrit for bosses. Doing incredibly good DPS with current SMN while handling mechanics perfectly? I can see the 0.1% of the SMN playerbase achieving it.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

At least half the SMNs I have come across so far couldn't even figure out that Garuda is meant for trash pulls and Ifrit for bosses. Doing incredibly good DPS with current SMN while handling mechanics perfectly? I can see the 0.1% of the SMN playerbase achieving it.

True, I'll not argue that point. I think you're low-balling the number a little, but the point stands.

[Taranok]

But why not? What is wrong with a creating a busy caster?

First of all, it's worth noting that Summoner typically hasn't been a busy caster. It's busier than BLM, but as of SB despite the tedious micromanagement of contagion, it was never a busy caster. Red mage was always the "busy" caster and it has a playstyle that best suits a busy caster. That is, half of all GCDs, always, are instant cast. So it has a lot of opportunity to make use of oGCDs, which it has many of, though ironically nowhere close to the new Summoner.

After this, the classes "busier" than Red Mage are always the Ranged DPS classes. Bard, Machinist, and now Dancer. Of these, Dancers appears to be the least busy, but it's still moderately busy, and I believe Bard is the most busy as of ShB. So if you want a busy playstyle, the playstyle exists both in caster form and in other DPS, including melee.

What breaks it for summoner is that the class effectively doesn't have enough opportunity to do what it needs to do. At level 72, you basically have enough of the rotation to know everything if you never enkindle or use EAs during Phoenix, it's basically the same just mix in an Enkindle Phoenix oGCD and you'd get it.

The classes breaks in about 3 areas. 1, the opener has literally about 18 oGCDs it needs to cast within 15 seconds. It needs to double weave but if you run into ping issues, double weaving is likely beyond your capabilities to reliably do. I've noticed some SMN oGCDs double weave worse than others, making the entire issue more frustrating than it needs to be as well.

The second is that the nature of how EA works means it is very easy to get the game to throw errors at you and eat the cooldown without giving you anything to show for it. Or maybe it does and the error is erroneous, but it throws out errors like mad during normal play.

The third is that the AoE rotation, due to how busy the ST rotation is, is so problematic that you flat out cannot cast Outburst outside of DWT because you don't have enough time and are flatly inundated with too many oGCDs to cast, so the rotation especially in AoE is constantly spent either not casting anything, or casting ruin 2/4 to get out your ESes, your Painflares, your banes, and your EAs. This isn't even factoring in Enkindle and Devotion, which you still have to find room for.

Play the class at level 60 and, despite it having some of the worst offenders of the rotation around, you'll notice the class flows a lot better overall, albeit the aoe rotation is still a complete and utter nightmare.

[Gallus]

Personally, I completely go nuts with the aoe, I find it a lot less problematic, because let's be honest here, when you have 4-5 mobs you aren't going to throw a Ruin II just so that you can weave that painflare...you are just going to spam outburst and clip painflare. AOE is simpler, in the sense you spread your dots with bane, start spamming outburst and then clip one or two ogcds between each outburst, weaving here isn't worth it unless you are under DWT or FBT.

Now...your single target rotation is a whole another story...

[ChaoticCrimson]

Personally, I completely go nuts with the aoe, I find it a lot less problematic, because let's be honest here, when you have 4-5 mobs you aren't going to throw a Ruin II just so that you can weave that painflare...you are just going to spam outburst and clip painflare. AOE is simpler, in the sense you spread your dots with bane, start spamming outburst and then clip one or two ogcds between each outburst, weaving here isn't worth it unless you are under DWT or FBT.

Now...your single target rotation is a whole another story...

To be fair, in a lot of cases you'll probably want that Ruin II every now and then for double-weaves rather than single. For instance, you can double-weave that Painflare with one of the Egi Assaults/Enkindle for added aoe, or you may need to refresh DoTs with Tri-Disaster and Bane. I know it's not overly important in an average dungeon with trash pulls, but it's definitely a consideration.

[Nemekh]

To be fair, in a lot of cases you'll probably want that Ruin II every now and then for double-weaves rather than single. For instance, you can double-weave that Painflare with one of the Egi Assaults/Enkindle for added aoe, or you may need to refresh DoTs with Tri-Disaster and Bane. I know it's not overly important in an average dungeon with trash pulls, but it's definitely a consideration.

This is better advice than the whole notion of "just clip" while AoEing. Be efficient with your weaves, make it count. Yes doubles suck if you clip from latency already, but it's always going to be better than clipping hardcast outbursts with the sole exception being if the small sliver of time is the difference between actions landing and not being overkill.

[Gallus]

This is better advice than the whole notion of "just clip" while AoEing. Be efficient with your weaves, make it count. Yes doubles suck if you clip from latency already, but it's always going to be better than clipping hardcast outbursts with the sole exception being if the small sliver of time is the difference between actions landing and not being overkill.

Gotta cast that Ruin II when tank chain pulls 9 mobs, it's sure as hell going to make a lot of difference (actually no, you are being inefficient and losing out on a lot of DPS). An outburst with the ruination effect hitting say 5 mobs accounts for 450 potency. You don't want to waste an entire GCD that could be doing 450 potency for one that will do 180 potency just so that you can weave your painflares or EAs. But whatever, you can keep casting your Ruin IIs against 5+ mobs.

[Nemekh]

Gotta cast that Ruin II when tank chain pulls 9 mobs, it's sure as hell going to make a lot of difference (actually no, you are being inefficient and losing out on a lot of DPS). An outburst with the ruination effect hitting say 5 mobs accounts for 450 potency. You don't want to waste an entire GCD that could be doing 450 potency for one that will do 180 potency just so that you can weave your painflares or EAs. But whatever, you can keep casting your Ruin IIs against 5+ mobs.

You missed the point about being efficient with doubles with meaningful ogcds. But I'm not surprised gcd efficiency is such a lost concept.