Shadowbringer: Summoner Changes Discussion

[dinnertime]

New SMN is pretty overwhelming that I actually leveled BLM instead lol (that and I'm enjoying BLM more than SMN later in 4.x), but I appreciate it.
There's a lot of good changes, but there's just so many things to keep track of now and imo the flow of the job doesn't feel too great. They might want to cut down the oGCDs a little bit.

I might have a different opinion when I have it at 80.

[Roda]

Like I think SE is moving on the right path but I think they missed their mark.
I like being so active, it's not that I have too much to do, it's that I have too many (separate) things/timers to keep track of that my brainmeats get so cluttered.
It's like I'm frantically playing catch-up with my cooldowns @@

[Daemonfaust]

I loved Summoner in Stormblood and love it even more now! The fast pace feels soooo good. Definitely will be my main caster for this expansion.

[Elgeron]

So far I really like it. The pet feels more important. The great focus on rotating summons is surprisingly enough quite loyal to the way the summons have worked in older FF (summon for a single attack, being able to summon different ones through combat). The focus on controlling pet makes wonders for the job identity while offering more control over Ruin IV and making the player plan their rotation more carefully. Dreadwyrm trance and Phoenix Trance are similar enough not to feel confused, but work differently enough to felt as different phases of the same rotation. Having to plan around your opening in dungeon depending on which phase you are is great. While Titan could still be better, having each Egi have different roles and uses is, IMO, a good idea and give you access to more skills without being filling the skill bar too much.The class is hectic and intense, there is always something to do and feels so fast compared to the other casters. Is really its own beast. I think it may be hard but is not bad to be so, it really differentiates from the other two and caters to a different play style. While there may be some issues, like Dreadwyrm trance being locked by Summon Bahamut, which can be a bit clunky, I'll definitively maining it this expansion, really liked it in SB, but ShB so far is really great.

[Valmarus]

I'm finding that low level SMN ability to solo mobs in the field has been utterly destroyed by the pet changes. At level 38 with healing focused chocobo companion I'm constantly finding that mobs as low as lvl 31* (depending on the mob) are quite capable of bringing you to the edge of death. I've got fairly good gear for my level also but taking the brunt of all attacks, well, we're just far too squishy for that. Without the pet between us and the mob they're just tearing through my HP. It makes doing fates certain other activities problematic. I've said it before but it seems like this patch has been completely balanced around lvl 60+ with little regard for getting there.

*Just thought I'd add this note that this was a malboro type mob which granted are more difficult than other mobs comparatively just so I don't look too incompetent. But a 7 level advantage on my part should make it a walkover.

[ShariusTC]

Lv 78 and i love the changing of SMN so far, we lost some skill but our oGCD go up instead, so it's feel our new rotaion more busy than the old one, also the phoenix phase make me feel like i am a walking nuke in big pull, lol

[yillin]

I've been enjoying SMN changes so farrl. I just hit 80 last night. I agree at first I felt like I was watching all my cooldowns heavily and felt like I was missing boss mechanics in dungeons but as my hand gets more comfortable and I begin to realize what cooldowns are necessary to watch it is getting easier.

I find doubling down on EG1 and 2 with Ifrit in a weave is more consistent than Garuda. However if I try to accomplish it before Ifrit is in melee range it will throw the ability error. I do see the second assault go off eventually but it takes practically a GCD longer. I find that the only time I need to hard cast my dots is during the last 5 seconds of Bahamut. Any other time tri-disaster always seems to be ready. I get 1 at the opening, one with DWT refresh, then hard cast dots during Bahamut, then one right before entering Phoenix trance, then one outside of Phoenix trance just as dots are falling off. Doing that means that as the dots fall off, DWT is ready to go and I get to start all over again.

[Taranok]

Yeah, I'll pass. I've waited years for them to finally make Summoner feel like a Summoner, and actually getting to command my Egis is a big part of that. From where I stand, Flavour is just as important to a job than functionality is - especially in this game where every role tends to be homogenized to a point. I'd rather they try to make changes that keep the class fantasy than turn Summoners into mere Ruin Mages again.
Besides, Aetherflow is a worse offender when it comes to "busywork" than EA is, so if any cuts should happen, I'd prefer they start there.

Considering that the Egis are the least summoner aspect of summoner, I fail to see your point. I'd seriously delete the Egis and all their associated abilities and completely rework how low level summoner works. To the point where the carbuncles are your low level summons, weak and frail. Then by 50 you would instead summon Demi-Ifrit and Demi-'Ruda, possibly Demi-Titan, and by 80 you'd do Bahamut and Phoenix, and possibly a third summon.

I would then take abilities like enkindle or Egi-Assault and turn those into "Let's summon old summons to attack either for a singular attack or for longer priods of time, but we purely summon them." So you could have demi-bahamut and Phoenix as your primary summons, and when you enkindle you summon Ifrit/Garuda/Titan, either individually (random rotation) or all 3.

That would make me feel more like a summoner than having to tell the carbuncle to do a left-handed attack instead of a right handed attack every 30 seconds, and DB/DP make me feel more like a summoner than the egis ever can or ever will.

Like I think SE is moving on the right path but I think they missed their mark.
I like being so active, it's not that I have too much to do, it's that I have too many (separate) things/timers to keep track of that my brainmeats get so cluttered.
It's like I'm frantically playing catch-up with my cooldowns @@

It does eventually start to move into a flow, but my issue is that in addition to tunnel visioning, I spend so much time trying to get out all of the oGCDs that I literally don't have time for something as basic as casting outburst, our filler aoe spell, except during DWT specifically where everything's instant cast. The class is just not set up to handle this many oGCDs this often and this quickly, and pretty much no class likes repeatedly and consistently double weaving.

If this were Red Mage, it would at least make some sense because RDM has every other GCD being instant cast as a guarantee, but SMN is not and it can't handle the sheer bulk of abilities flying out, so it clashes heavily with the actual abilities of the class.

[ChaoticCrimson]

I'm only at LV74 at present, so my opinion may change in time once I get to 80. At this point, I have a lot of mixed feelings. For one, the Trance timing seems so wonky now. I have no idea how to pace out my rotations yet to line things up in the best way. To be fair, the old setup did have a fair amount of "downtime" between the second DWT and Bahamut, then a bit more after Bahamut left. Despite the OGCDs not counting toward Wyrmwave anymore I still feel like weaving them in is intended during that phase, as I often find Energy Drain lining up usually as I begin it. On the other hand, I do really like the Firebird Trance, and it's also nice that Ruin IV procs don't fall off during that phase. Speaking of Ruin IV, it seems like it's a lot less frequent than it was before, now that you have to rely mainly on Egi Assaults to proc them. I'm also still getting used to Lucid coming back off cooldown so much sooner, and the changes to MP. Before it was rare when I needed to worry about MP, even factoring Mana Shifts and the occasional rez. Now it seems like MP management is much more relevant, and that's not necessarily a bad thing but it does feel very different than I'm used to. Overall, it seems like a bit of a jumble so far, but as I said before, my thoughts may change once I'm at 80 and maybe have a better sense of how the rhythm of the new setup is supposed to work. In short, I do like it but it's going to take some work to figure out how I should be making the most of it.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

It does eventually start to move into a flow, but my issue is that in addition to tunnel visioning, I spend so much time trying to get out all of the oGCDs that I literally don't have time for something as basic as casting outburst, our filler aoe spell, except during DWT specifically where everything's instant cast. The class is just not set up to handle this many oGCDs this often and this quickly, and pretty much no class likes repeatedly and consistently double weaving.

If this were Red Mage, it would at least make some sense because RDM has every other GCD being instant cast as a guarantee, but SMN is not and it can't handle the sheer bulk of abilities flying out, so it clashes heavily with the actual abilities of the class.

I pointed this out in the other thread, but it feels like the intent is for us use Ruin II to weave oGCDs and to use the instant Ruin IIIs provided by the initial DWT to dump as many of our charged oGCDs as we can, e.g. try and get Energy Drain, Fester, and both Egi Assaults on complete CD before the end of DWT, so we can be casting Ruin III more often, only using Ruin II/IV as necessary to cast an oGCD.