Shadowbringer: Summoner Changes Discussion

[SchrodingersWaffle]

I'm all for cutting back on oGCDs a little, but I'd prefer they do so without just turning our pets into random glowy blobs again.
I'd find the design of rewarding player to not actively use their abilities (by making them automatic) pretty questionable, especially since Further Ruin is tied to it. Let's face it, Summoner is a Pet Job (or at least the closest equivalent, depending on if your definition of Pet requires HP Bars), you should have to command your Egi for full effectiveness, at least in my opinion. Being able to automate your Pet is fine in and of itself, but there should be a drawback.
Also, we've finally just moved on from being a Ruin Mage with auto attacking Blobs, I'd prefer not to go back to that.

If the Devs make cuts to our oGCDs, I'd rather they take a look at whats left of the Aetherflow Mechanic and ask themselves which parts are really worth keeping around now that its divorced from our major Job Mechanic. Personally I'd get rid of Energy Drain/Siphon (give it to back to SCH, they'll love it), combine Bane and Painflare into one skill (since both are only used during AoE anyway), and throw Fester and Baneflare onto a shared Chargetimer. If that happens to be impossible due to technical challenges, maybe turn Aetherflow into a passive that works similar to how WHMs Lilies work now; gaining SMN a stack of Aetherflow every 20 seconds or so.
(Or, for a more drastic Pipedream; turn Fester and "Baneflare" into Pet Abilities, mock up an Egi Assault 3 and redistribute any lost potency towards other Pet Abilites and additional Ruin IVs procced by using EA3. Also, lower Enkindle Cooldown ever further, let the Egis get some burst action too. Bonus Points if Titans EA3 was some sort of Reverse Sustain, putting a Regen on the Summoner to augment Earther Armor. Unlikely, I know, but an Elf can dream right?)

Speaking of Titan: They really shoud take another look, because currently Earthern Armor is very clunky to use in most Content but also too weak to really help in solo situations (PotD/HoH/soloing Wonderous Tails stuff etc). I really wish the devs would just embrace the whole Solo/Support Pet possibility as I see no reason to be worried about it encroaching on regular Contest so long as Titan trades enough damage for it.
Also, make EAs ranged so the Pets don't eat it, lol.

Sorry if this is a bit disorderly and incoherent, just following my train of thought here. I honestly have more thoughts and Ideas, but I don't want to overdo it before I've seen the full picture at level 80.

I could see them getting rid of Aetherflow entirely and just changing Fester/Painflare to a 15sec recast 1sec CD with 4 shared charges.

[Gallus]

/signs for the above. And fester not requiring dots to do 300 potency and instead be a 300 potency OGCD without requirements too. It's so stupid to get caught up in some random dungeon miniboss 10kHP vines and needing either 3 ruin III or Bio Miasma Ruin III to kill something a RDM can take down with a single Verthunder/Veraero. Seriously the whole thing is so complex but so inconvenient at the same time it makes me wanna cry, because I love SMN's design so much and I was very excited with these 2 demi summons.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

I could see them getting rid of Aetherflow entirely and just changing Fester/Painflare to a 15sec recast 1sec CD with 4 shared charges.

Yup, that would be the quick and easy fix, though im not entirely sure if just cutting out ED/ES is enough which is why I suggested lowering Fester/Painflares uses per minute back to just 3 (cutting a total of 4 oGCDs per minute).
Ultimately though this change stands and falls with SE's ability to even put Skills on shared charges (don't see why not, but then again it's SE...).

/signs for the above. And fester not requiring dots to do 300 potency and instead be a 300 potency OGCD without requirements too. It's so stupid to get caught up in some random dungeon miniboss 10kHP vines and needing either 3 ruin III or Bio Miasma Ruin III to kill something a RDM can take down with a single Verthunder/Veraero. Seriously the whole thing is so complex but so inconvenient at the same time it makes me wanna cry, because I love SMN's design so much and I was very excited with these 2 demi summons.

Hmm, I can see where you're coming from. (The Idealist in me wants to say thats what EAs should be for, but the Realist tells me SE might need another expansion to make that work, so...)
On one hand I think divorcing Fester and the DoTs might make it a bit too easy, on the other hand though proper play is already rewarded through stronger Ruins now; and Painflare has nothing to do with your DoTs either so... why not? Alternatively, should they choose to lower Fester usages per minutes they could just redistribute the lost Potency into Festers base potency, so it has 200 base + 100 per DoT for a total of 400, giving you 300 Potency after using just Bio III for a 1 GCD burst.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

Yup, that would be the quick and easy fix, though im not entirely sure if just cutting out ED/ES is enough which is why I suggested lowering Fester/Painflares uses per minute back to just 3 (cutting a total of 4 oGCDs per minute).
Ultimately though this change stands and falls with SE's ability to even put Skills on shared charges (don't see why not, but then again it's SE...).



Hmm, I can see where you're coming from. (The Idealist in me wants to say thats what EAs should be for, but the Realist tells me SE might need another expansion to make that work, so...)
On one hand I think divorcing Fester and the DoTs might make it a bit too easy, on the other hand though proper play is already rewarded through stronger Ruins now; and Painflare has nothing to do with your DoTs either so... why not? Alternatively, should they choose to lower Fester usages per minutes they could just redistribute the lost Potency into Festers base potency, so it has 200 base + 100 per DoT for a total of 400, giving you 300 Potency after using just Bio III for a 1 GCD burst.

Honestly if they do shift Fester away from Aetherflow and give it 300 pot base, I'd say just get rid of the DoTs all together, and shift the potency into Dreadwyrm Trance, maybe by letting Deathflare stack to 3, and giving us an different hardhitting finisher, maybe put Megaflare in somehow.

[Taranok]

Yup, that would be the quick and easy fix, though im not entirely sure if just cutting out ED/ES is enough which is why I suggested lowering Fester/Painflares uses per minute back to just 3 (cutting a total of 4 oGCDs per minute).
Ultimately though this change stands and falls with SE's ability to even put Skills on shared charges (don't see why not, but then again it's SE...).



Hmm, I can see where you're coming from. (The Idealist in me wants to say thats what EAs should be for, but the Realist tells me SE might need another expansion to make that work, so...)
On one hand I think divorcing Fester and the DoTs might make it a bit too easy, on the other hand though proper play is already rewarded through stronger Ruins now; and Painflare has nothing to do with your DoTs either so... why not? Alternatively, should they choose to lower Fester usages per minutes they could just redistribute the lost Potency into Festers base potency, so it has 200 base + 100 per DoT for a total of 400, giving you 300 Potency after using just Bio III for a 1 GCD burst.

Realistically the devs could literally delete EA1 and 2, shove Ruin 4 procs onto ED/ES (1 at 62, 2 at 74), give ED a charge of 2 to prevent annoying cooldown clipping, and increase the potency of ruin spells to compensate for the loss of a mere 400 potency per minute, and the class would be 100% functional without the bad busywork.

They can also increase Outward's aoe to be 100 by default to account for Garuda's loss of aoe ability or just buff Garuda to closer to 80 potency per GCD or what have you. It wouldn't be hard to do as a mid-patch change to make the class not feel bad, since the class is mostly there already.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

Realistically the devs could literally delete EA1 and 2, shove Ruin 4 procs onto ED/ES (1 at 62, 2 at 74), give ED a charge of 2 to prevent annoying cooldown clipping, and increase the potency of ruin spells to compensate for the loss of a mere 400 potency per minute, and the class would be 100% functional without the bad busywork.

They can also increase Outward's aoe to be 100 by default to account for Garuda's loss of aoe ability or just buff Garuda to closer to 80 potency per GCD or what have you. It wouldn't be hard to do as a mid-patch change to make the class not feel bad, since the class is mostly there already.

Yeah, I'll pass. I've waited years for them to finally make Summoner feel like a Summoner, and actually getting to command my Egis is a big part of that. From where I stand, Flavour is just as important to a job than functionality is - especially in this game where every role tends to be homogenized to a point. I'd rather they try to make changes that keep the class fantasy than turn Summoners into mere Ruin Mages again.
Besides, Aetherflow is a worse offender when it comes to "busywork" than EA is, so if any cuts should happen, I'd prefer they start there.

[Gallus]

Add in as much flavour as you want, but you can't have this amount of bloat with the egis giving spell queue errors.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

Add in as much flavour as you want, but you can't have this amount of bloat with the egis giving spell queue errors.

Only had one of those once, and that was when I was trying to get it. In practice they are fairly easy to avoid by simply spacing EA Double Weaves out properly, which cutting back on other bloat would make easier, effectively turning it into a non-issue as far as I am concerned.
And I'll say it again: I'm all for cutting some of the bloat, I'd just prefer for it to not be EA that gets the cut. But in the end it's SE's decision anyway. Simply stating my opinion here.

[Dyvid]

Add in as much flavour as you want, but you can't have this amount of bloat with the egis giving spell queue errors.

Question, are you weaving the EA between ruin cast or trying to do them all at once?

One thing the might help would be changing Energy Drain to 200 potency with 60s recast time, giving you 4 aetherflow stacks per minute instead of 2 per 30s.

[Aniond]

I love the changes. Summoner feels more active instead of just pet spamming. Best change so far Ive seen