Shadowbringer: Summoner Changes Discussion

[kyuxel]

Honestly I wish I can toggle which EA can be auto cast by pet. All EA, except maybe garuda slipstream and titan earthen armor, can just be auto used by pet like before.

[Gallus]

Honestly I wish I can toggle which EA can be auto cast by pet. All EA, except maybe garuda slipstream and titan earthen armor, can just be auto used by pet like before.

I feel like a scrub for agreeing with this but you know what...I'd actually welcome it, the OGCD bloat and things to keep track of is so overwhelming it's hard to pay attention to boss mechanics.

[Taranok]

I'm thinking it's not directly related to "going ham," so much as it's related to server tics. Even the best opener rotations I've seen would inherently put the egi at risk of dropping abilities, and it's basically impossible to account for without pacing out the oGCDs to be further apart.

And when designing these classes, you should basically expect that the player is going to fire off every oGCD in any order possible as fast as possible, I'm trying to find an optimal rotation but when I'm in a dungeon having gotten my 15th "Your pet cannot execute this action" error, in addition to tunnel visioning so hard I flat out cannot see bosses and their mechanics, and it makes me want to play a multitasking class that's easier like bard, there's a serious problem with the class design.

The issue comes down to a few specific points.

• The class has too many oGCDs
• Devotion, EA 1+2, ED, Fester, ES, Painflare, Bane are the oGCDs that cause major problems.
• The Pet oGCDs have a high chance of clipping each other and throwing away their effects either in part or entirely, including wasting the cooldown itself.
• The rotation outside of those specific problem oGCDs seems fine aside from having nothing to do on the back half of the rotaiton.
• Bane is an ability wanting for purpose, and exacerbates the oGCD issue, albeit only in dungeons against trash mobs typically. It's bar bloat, oGCD density, and just serves no purpose for an ability that I wish I could just set to autofire and pretend it doesn't exist (okay, not literally, but seriously the ability has no reason to exist).

Any change done should try to find a way to slow down the oGCD usage probably to about SB levels, especially in the opener (without micro-managing Contagion) and then find a way to distribute the abilities over more parts of the rotation more evenly.

The class needs work. It's not far, most of the changes need to be potency+cooldown changes, some can be resolved by deleting abilities and augmenting others, and others can be solved by just having one ability turn into another at a higher level. The class should not be a bard though, and it should not be more involved/harder than a bard to execute what is fundamentally the same style.

It shouldn't be too hard to fix, but I have a feeling if Summoner is not changed early, the class is going to end up with something akin to Machinist syndrome from SB where very few people actually play it because it has that many problems.

[Gallus]

I'm thinking it's not directly related to "going ham," so much as it's related to server tics. Even the best opener rotations I've seen would inherently put the egi at risk of dropping abilities, and it's basically impossible to account for without pacing out the oGCDs to be further apart.

And when designing these classes, you should basically expect that the player is going to fire off every oGCD in any order possible as fast as possible, I'm trying to find an optimal rotation but when I'm in a dungeon having gotten my 15th "Your pet cannot execute this action" error, in addition to tunnel visioning so hard I flat out cannot see bosses and their mechanics, and it makes me want to play a multitasking class that's easier like bard, there's a serious problem with the class design.

The issue comes down to a few specific points.

• The class has too many oGCDs
• Devotion, EA 1+2, ED, Fester, ES, Painflare, Bane are the oGCDs that cause major problems.
• The Pet oGCDs have a high chance of clipping each other and throwing away their effects either in part or entirely, including wasting the cooldown itself.
• The rotation outside of those specific problem oGCDs seems fine aside from having nothing to do on the back half of the rotaiton.
• Bane is an ability wanting for purpose, and exacerbates the oGCD issue, albeit only in dungeons against trash mobs typically. It's bar bloat, oGCD density, and just serves no purpose for an ability that I wish I could just set to autofire and pretend it doesn't exist (okay, not literally, but seriously the ability has no reason to exist).

Any change done should try to find a way to slow down the oGCD usage probably to about SB levels, especially in the opener (without micro-managing Contagion) and then find a way to distribute the abilities over more parts of the rotation more evenly.

The class needs work. It's not far, most of the changes need to be potency+cooldown changes, some can be resolved by deleting abilities and augmenting others, and others can be solved by just having one ability turn into another at a higher level. The class should not be a bard though, and it should not be more involved/harder than a bard to execute what is fundamentally the same style.

It shouldn't be too hard to fix, but I have a feeling if Summoner is not changed early, the class is going to end up with something akin to Machinist syndrome from SB where very few people actually play it because it has that many problems.

What Kyuxel has actually suggested isn't a bad idea. Just allow the Egi to automatically do the assaults and net us Ruin IVs. That would substantially solve this OGCD bloat mess...

[SchrodingersWaffle]

Another solution would just be to straight up make Ruin III instant cast, or increase the potency on Ruin II again so it's not a DPS loss to use Ruin III as filler and Ruin II when you need to weave.

[Len]

I'm finding Summoner to be a little overwhelming to keep up with currently.

That being said, I'm glad that you largely know what to expect from the job early on since there's a huge gap before you gain your final ability at Lv.80.

[Rauderi]

Overall, I'm glad SMN feels busier than just Ruin III x 5. And I feel burstier, at least a little.

Major problems so far:
Physick. It's still Mind-based, the job isn't given the Mind to support it. If Firebird's heal is Int-based, it's about time for Physick to get an Int-trait as well, at level 30. I'm not looking for RDM numbers here, but 700 at level 70 is asinine.
Tied to lack of HP restoration, SMN is far squishier than it used to be. It wouldn't be so much a problem if Titan's Egi I activated Ruin IV, but it does not, while the other attack-spells do. Which tells me it's probably coded as "resolve after attack" instead of "resolve after activation". That also needs to change.
If we're *not* going to get a decent Physick, can we at least get Energy Drain/Siphon to restore a percentage of HP? Even 5% might do wonders, since the skill is every 30 seconds.

[xXAzurePrimeXx]

Overall, I'm glad SMN feels busier than just Ruin III x 5. And I feel burstier, at least a little.

Major problems so far:
Physick. It's still Mind-based, the job isn't given the Mind to support it. If Firebird's heal is Int-based, it's about time for Physick to get an Int-trait as well, at level 30. I'm not looking for RDM numbers here, but 700 at level 70 is asinine.
Tied to lack of HP restoration, SMN is far squishier than it used to be. It wouldn't be so much a problem if Titan's Egi I activated Ruin IV, but it does not, while the other attack-spells do. Which tells me it's probably coded as "resolve after attack" instead of "resolve after activation". That also needs to change.
If we're *not* going to get a decent Physick, can we at least get Energy Drain/Siphon to restore a percentage of HP? Even 5% might do wonders, since the skill is every 30 seconds.

I agree with the Energy Drain part. They can leave Physick alone if they want but having ED heal us a bit would be amazing. Otherwise I like the changes. Of feels like we have a lot more choice where as before there was just one set rotation you repeated over and over again. This time I feel like I have options and damage seems to be more sustained. All around Summoner feels so much more satisfying especially summoning Phoenix. It could definitely use a few touch ups along the way but I'm happy that we got a decent rework. Also, a bit unrelated, but a lot of people are upset with Sch changes whereas I actually quite like them. If they gave us Enegry Drain back, it would be perfect.

[SchrodingersWaffle]

I agree with the Energy Drain part. They can leave Physick alone if they want but having ED heal us a bit would be amazing. Otherwise I like the changes. Of feels like we have a lot more choice where as before there was just one set rotation you repeated over and over again. This time I feel like I have options and damage seems to be more sustained. All around Summoner feels so much more satisfying especially summoning Phoenix. It could definitely use a few touch ups along the way but I'm happy that we got a decent rework. Also, a bit unrelated, but a lot of people are upset with Sch changes whereas I actually quite like them. If they gave us Enegry Drain back, it would be perfect.

Things I would like for SMN:

• Change to FBT/DWT that gives us more flexibility on when we use them. (Either Nemekh's theorized ability from the thread he did on SMN changes or by putting 2 charges on Trance. I'm not picky)
• Egi Assault I+II triggering Further Ruin off of the SMN activating the ability, not the Pet using the ability
• Either let Physick scale off Int or give us SOMETHING to offset losing Titan tanking. His Egi Assault I is a good starting place. Energy Drain/Siphon giving back Health percentage would be a good place to continue but we're gonna need more than that.

Over all I'm liking the changes.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

I'm all for cutting back on oGCDs a little, but I'd prefer they do so without just turning our pets into random glowy blobs again.
I'd find the design of rewarding player to not actively use their abilities (by making them automatic) pretty questionable, especially since Further Ruin is tied to it. Let's face it, Summoner is a Pet Job (or at least the closest equivalent, depending on if your definition of Pet requires HP Bars), you should have to command your Egi for full effectiveness, at least in my opinion. Being able to automate your Pet is fine in and of itself, but there should be a drawback.
Also, we've finally just moved on from being a Ruin Mage with auto attacking Blobs, I'd prefer not to go back to that.

If the Devs make cuts to our oGCDs, I'd rather they take a look at whats left of the Aetherflow Mechanic and ask themselves which parts are really worth keeping around now that its divorced from our major Job Mechanic. Personally I'd get rid of Energy Drain/Siphon (give it to back to SCH, they'll love it), combine Bane and Painflare into one skill (since both are only used during AoE anyway), and throw Fester and Baneflare onto a shared Chargetimer. If that happens to be impossible due to technical challenges, maybe turn Aetherflow into a passive that works similar to how WHMs Lilies work now; gaining SMN a stack of Aetherflow every 20 seconds or so.
(Or, for a more drastic Pipedream; turn Fester and "Baneflare" into Pet Abilities, mock up an Egi Assault 3 and redistribute any lost potency towards other Pet Abilites and additional Ruin IVs procced by using EA3. Also, lower Enkindle Cooldown ever further, let the Egis get some burst action too. Bonus Points if Titans EA3 was some sort of Reverse Sustain, putting a Regen on the Summoner to augment Earther Armor. Unlikely, I know, but an Elf can dream right?)

Speaking of Titan: They really shoud take another look, because currently Earthern Armor is very clunky to use in most Content but also too weak to really help in solo situations (PotD/HoH/soloing Wonderous Tails stuff etc). I really wish the devs would just embrace the whole Solo/Support Pet possibility as I see no reason to be worried about it encroaching on regular Contest so long as Titan trades enough damage for it.
Also, make EAs ranged so the Pets don't eat it, lol.

Sorry if this is a bit disorderly and incoherent, just following my train of thought here. I honestly have more thoughts and Ideas, but I don't want to overdo it before I've seen the full picture at level 80.