Monk: My reaction to Shadowbringers changes.

[PangTong]

The media embargo has lifted and information on job changes are now everywhere for all to see. So that no one gets confused, here's a link to gamerescape's action and trait list images for Monk containing all of Monk's tooltips:
https://gamerescape.com/wp-content/u...Abilitymap.png
https://gamerescape.com/wp-content/u...nkTraitmap.png

After making a long thread about Monk after the release of Stormblood, I was hoping I wouldn't have to come back to complain again when the 5.0 changes were eventually revealed two years later. But, here I am.

To summarize: Monk got several helpful changes, but the core flaws of the job have not changed. I was very disappointed after hearing in the live letter that they had listened to feedback about Monk not being fun and changed it accordingly, only to find many of its problems still there.

My issues are as follows:
1. Riddle of Fire STILL slows us down.
This was perhaps one of the biggest complaints about Monk during Stormblood, that our natural combo rhythm was interrupted by an ability that we are forced to use for the sake of DPS. Using Riddle of Fire DOES NOT FEEL GOOD. It is baffling that Square have said they listened to feedback on Monk but did not address THE single most crucial issue.

2. Tornado Kick STILL eats our Greased Lightning stacks.
I have no idea why the dev team keeps wanting us to dump our speed. Building and maintaining our speed is the fun part of Monk. Having to constantly dump our speed and then build it all the way back up again FEELS TERRIBLE. Why are we being continuously encouraged to do this when it feels so bad?

3. The new skill Six-Sided Star creates an even more jarring rotation.
This new skill is offGCD, but forces ALL your weaponskills into its own cooldown which is the length of two GCDs. Upon using it, there is a period of two GCDs where you can do nothing but use abilities. The purpose of this skill is probably for when you need to move away from your target, but due to its potency it is very likely that it will work out to be a DPS increase when used right at the end of Riddle of Fire, because this is also the point where you want to dump all your Greased Lightning stacks with Tornado Kick. This creates a very jarring point in the rotation where the Monk's combos are not only slowed down but actually forcibly interrupted. I feel this is the very antithesis of what Monk gameplay should be.

4. We are losing Internal Release, Howling Fist and Steel Peak.
While these abilities were quite simple "press on cooldown" oGCD attacks or buffs, they do at least add some much needed extra effort into the Monk rotation. Now that they are gone, Monk's rotation is now less active than ever. During our regular combo rotation, our only rotational oGCD actions are now Elixir Field, Shoulder Tackle, Forbidden Chakra, and Riddle of Fire. That's all. Tornado Kick, Six Sided Star and Perfect Balance may be used at the end of the Riddle of Fire phase, but this is otherwise the only thing that breaks up the monotony of the Monk rotation. Howling Fist might be replaced by Enlightenment, but since Enlightenment shares a resource with The Forbidden Chakra, it is only used during AoE and not as part of Monk's regular single-target rotation like Howling Fist was. Similarly, Six-Sided Star might see occasional use in the rotation, but FAR less often than Steel Peak was.

What's even weirder though is that Perfect Balance's cooldown has been extended to 120s, and Riddle of Wind is gone, meaning you can only really do the Tornado Kick rotation every OTHER Riddle of Fire phase, which is every 3 MINUTES. Even if you like the Tornado Kick rotation, these changes makes Monk FAR less engaging than it currently is. I'm legitimately left confused about whether they want us to use Tornado Kick or not.

5. Fists of Earth and Riddle of Earth are still in the game.
Now that we have Anatman and Six-Sided Star to help us preserve Greased Lightning, I don't understand why these abilities are still in the game. Monks will never choose a defense buff over a damage buff, and Riddle of Earth's ability to save Greased Lightning no longer feels necessary except maybe if there's HUGE amounts of downtime during boss transition phases. Wouldn't it have been more sensible to drop these actions and let us keep Internal Release and Howling Fist?

6. What is the point of Fists of Fire/Wind and Greased Lightning IV?
Shadowbringers is adding the much-requested Greased Lightning IV. If we assume it grants the standard Greased Lightning buff of 10% extra damage and 5% reduced recast timers on our combos, then it is clearly better than Fists of Fire's now 10% damage buff. This means the only time we want to use Fists of Fire is when we are at three stacks of Greased Lightning or lower. However Perfect Balance ensures that this period of time shouldn't last more than about 15 seconds. Even if we are dumping our stacks with Tornado Kick every 3 minutes, this is only 15 seconds of a three-minute window where Fists of Fire serves a purpose. What exactly was the point of keeping the two separates stances then? Perhaps there are some extra changes that aren't yet reflected in the tooltips, but for now I am pessimistic.

Conclusion

I believe the core concept of Monk is a job based on fast, smooth, and fluid combos that chain together in a natural rhythm to produce a satisfying stream of attacks. Doing this feels good and we (or at least I) do not want to have this nice rhythmic combo stream constantly interrupted by forced slowdowns. Yet, that is what our changes encourage. Not only that, but several of our normal rotational actions have been removed and replaced with more situational actions, dumbing down the rotation and making it less engaging.

Monk did get SOME nice new actions. Anatman is a very welcome ability that will help us to maintain Greased Lightning through extended downtime, even if there's no outgoing damage. Six-Sided Star is a neat idea that gives Monk something to use if they have to move away from their target for a few seconds. It's nice to finally have an AoE chakra-spender with Enlightenment. And having a full three-step AoE combo rotation is very nice, I am not upset to see One Ilm Punch gone, and I am glad to see Arm of the Destroyer finally get renewed usefulness. However I feel like these positive changes came at too much of a cost.

I will play with Monk for a while upon Shadowbringers release so that I can test these changes for myself, but right now I am not optimistic, and I am only expecting to verify my concerns. I am very disappointed that it now seems likely that I am looking at yet another two years of a Monk "riddled" with issues.

[reyre]

I agree, however i dont like the AOE changes, because what is the point? we already have (or had) a skill like enlightenment, it was called HF, and it was free, which meant that we could use our Chakra stacks in dealing "extra "dmg. Now we only have Enlightenment which kills one free oGCD for one that is vastly situational, making it a dps loss over all. Tornado kick is back to being useless. i mean it looks like MNK did one stepfoward 4 steps back. this honestly feels like is the natural progresion for MNK ...IN 2.X not in 5.x.

Also not a fan of aoe...

[Kalise]

Looking over the list of things what jumps out at me is:

Good:

Arm of the Destroyer isn't complete trash. Now doing 80/110 potency.

Four Point Fury for a Raptor Form AoE. It also extends Twin Snakes. Neat!

Enlightenment for a Chakra spender for AoE is nifty.

Meditation now only has half a GCD so will be quicker to stack up.

Anatman is cool.

Bad:

Riddle of Fire slowdown >.<

Tornado Kick eats GL3... Bearing in mind, this specifically mentions Greased Lightning III meaning that given you'll want to be in Fists of Wind for GL4, you will have to swap to Fists of Fire to then use Tornado Kick... To then go back to Fists of Wind to get back to GL4.

Shoulder Tackle upgrades? Umm... Unless they forgot to mention a Trait... Shoulder Tackle no longer gets upgraded into Riddle of Wind? So there's no more GL generation? So what? Is the plan to rely on Perfect Balance + Snap Punch spam and Anatman as the only ways to generate GL stacks at a reasonable rate?

Wut:

Mantra because Monks really needed to keep their AoE Convalescence?

Fists of Poop and Riddle of Poop why do these still exist? When will a Monk ever give up DPS from FoW/FoF? Especially with 2 new tools to maintain GL stacks?

Fists of Wind/Fists of Fire these seem really awkward still. With GL4 it simply shifts to you wanting to be in FoW all the time, with clunky Tornado Kick mechanics to push you into FoF... Yaaay...

Deep Meditation still makes Monk really rely on Crit. So will always want to party with a Dragoon (Battle Litany), Dancer (25% crit buff) and Scholar (Chain Stratagem)

Brotherhood still reliant on weapon skills further pushing Monks to want full physical compositions.

Form Shift still looks to be clunky and weird?

Six-Sided Star is a double GCD? Okay fair enough if it's just to maintain GL stacks when a boss is transitioning or when moving from pack to pack... But wait, it is also a bunch of potency so it will be wanted to be used at the tail end of Riddle of Fire! Meaning you'll be slamming this in the middle of your rotation for more slowdown yaaaaay!

RIP Steel Peak + Howling Fist because we all know that Monks don't want to be using a lot of attacks, they want to strike slowly and very rarely... Oh wait no, the other thing, they want to hit fast and often...

[Noitems]

Monk now gets Leaden Fist after using Dragonkick which is a 100 pure potency boost to Bootshine.

My guess is to justify Steel Peak being taken out they gave Leaden Fist to make up for it since it will always crit if off the positional.

Losing Howling Fist sucks though. I love that skill so damn much and with it being an oGCD it didn't mess up any your standard aoe rotation. Four Point Fury giving extending twin snakes is fantastic but I really wish we didn't lose Howling Fist to justify a proper aoe combo.

[Kalise]

Monk now gets Leaden Fist after using Dragonkick which is a 100 pure potency boost to Bootshine.

My guess is to justify Steel Peak being taken out they gave Leaden Fist to make up for it since it will always crit if off the positional.

Leaden Fist is to make up for removing Blunt Debuff that Dragon Kick used to have.

[Noitems]

Leaden Fist is to make up for removing Blunt Debuff that Dragon Kick used to have.

I can get that but is the extra 100 potency he equivalent of landing a Bootshine with blunt debuff up? I never did math on that.

[reyre]

Wut:

You forgot no more Internal release...

[reyre]

I can get that but is the extra 100 potency he equivalent of landing a Bootshine with blunt debuff up? I never did math on that.

Honestly it doesnt seem right since blunt debuff affected ALL of MNK attacks so it doenst matter if BS got a 100 extra potency every other GCD got nerfed, but since Gl4 and FoF (now 10%) exist maybe is actually the same(?). However since you cant stack GL4 and FoF it actually might be a nerf

[giwaman]

Perfect balance is back to 120seconds recast. R.I.P tornado kick rotation been nice knowing ya! Welcome back Rof opener/rotation!

[Eremite]

I don't have a lot to add other than that i feel like SE devs have lost track of what made MNK fun. It was great in ARR, then amazing in Heavensward. I was super frustrated with it in Stormblood, but ended up dropping it for RDM (soon to be nerfed as well). The changes I'm reading about are making me pessimistic about being able to pick up the MNK I know and love again. :/