Scholar 5.0 Discussion

**Jandor** · 07-10-2019 06:01 PM

Can we get Alphinaud's Academician class instead?

**zeopower6** · 07-10-2019 06:28 PM

I don't understand the issue with the "we spam Broil so much now" thing... didn't that happen already a ton in 3.0 and 4.0? I know that there were the other things like SF/dots but at the end of the day once those were on you just spammed Broil regardless. That's what WHM and AST had done after applying their dot(s) and it was never really an issue so why is it an issue here?

Hopefully they add something back though since it seems like they put WHM WAY up there so they could buff SCH/AST later appropriately after people had a chance to play it.

**EaMett** · 07-10-2019 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by zeopower6

I don't understand the issue with the "we spam Broil so much now" thing... didn't that happen already a ton in 3.0 and 4.0? I know that there were the other things like SF/dots but at the end of the day once those were on you just spammed Broil regardless. That's what WHM and AST had done after applying their dot(s) and it was never really an issue so why is it an issue here?

Hopefully they add something back though since it seems like they put WHM WAY up there so they could buff SCH/AST later appropriately after people had a chance to play it.

People had been asking for more engaging DPS gameplay on whm and ast. But at the very least ast had the card system to keep them busy alongside the meager dps rotation. Whm had nothing in comparison.

Sch has a bunch of dots and ED to weave. I don’t have the numbers in front of me but the result was something like ~30% fewer broil casts compared to now. Not so insignificant by itself, but the real difference is in APM which took a pretty big hit and the awkwardness of the weaving (or lack of). The class just feels sluggish and clunky compared to before.

**EaMett** · 07-11-2019 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by galbsadi

snip

You can’t really compare a 5 ogcd healing kit with a 9 ogcd kit (+embrace) in the way you did. Especially not with the current content.

“Median/average” is also a bit tricky to handle because it’s often the result of people who haven’t optimized. You really need to go into higher tiers of play to see the job potential.

Anyways what I’m trying to say is that FFXIV is a game where optimized play means healing as little as possible. There’s little value in comparing players to see who parsed the highest HPS

The overall picture is however telling of how high current whm dps is.

**galbsadi** · 07-11-2019 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by EaMett

You can’t really compare a 5 ogcd healing kit with a 9 ogcd kit (+embrace) in the way you did. Especially not with the current content.

“Median/average” is also a bit tricky to handle because it’s often the result of people who haven’t optimized. You really need to go into higher tiers of play to see the job potential.

Anyways what I’m trying to say is that FFXIV is a game where optimized play means healing as little as possible. There’s little value in comparing players to see who parsed the highest HPS

The overall picture is however telling of how high current whm dps is.

Originally Posted by Connor

I feel like Scholar’s performance particularly is hard to gauge through averages, because I think the recent changes have actually created a bigger skill gap between ‘average’ players and ‘top tier players’, at least in terms of healing efficiency and taking advantage of DPS openings.

It’ll be interesting to see how they decide to approach this. If they buff Scholar / Astrologian damage to White Mage’s levels healers will contributing huge amounts of damage to raids. If they need White Mage’s Damage, then what is it supposed to bring?

Also as an aside, I still it’s sad that performance in the ‘healer’ role is measured purely by DPS and how much healing you can get away with skipping. I feel like the devs intention was to have healers judged for more than just how much DPS they even, even if their intention didn’t match their actions

That's why I also included 99% comparisons, where the differences are MORE stark and contrast than at the median.

Fine, you can say "it's not a good comparison to say that the median is 14% worse at DPS, you need to look at the top"...and I'll remind you...the top is 21% worse at DPS.
You can say "it's not a good comparison to say that the median is 3% worse at healing, you need to look at the top"...and I"ll remind you...the top is 8% worse at healing.

**LariaKirin** · 07-11-2019 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by galbsadi

That's why I also included 99% comparisons, where the differences are MORE stark and contrast than at the median.

Fine, you can say "it's not a good comparison to say that the median is 14% worse at DPS, you need to look at the top"...and I'll remind you...the top is 21% worse at DPS.
You can say "it's not a good comparison to say that the median is 3% worse at healing, you need to look at the top"...and I"ll remind you...the top is 8% worse at healing.

The SCH healing kit is strong because of its versatility, not because of raw numbers.

**galbsadi** · 07-11-2019 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

The SCH healing kit is strong because of its versatility, not because of raw numbers.

Thing is, it's not THAT versatile, really.

Sure, WD can be cast while moving, but loses the initial heal of MedicaII and has less potency after the pet tax and also has a 60s cooldown and also requires a fairy to be active and not doing something else and risks being lost to animations due to some recent bugs. (Both are now on the GCD, FYI.)

Lustrate is basically Afflatus Solace with 100 less potency and sharing resources with SS and Excog, rather than just Indom (Afflatus Rapture).

Indom is basically Afflatus Rapture with 100 more potency but sharing resources with SS and Excog, rather than just Lustrate (Afflatus Solace).

SS is arguably stronger than Asylum (10% dmg reduction instead of 10% bonus healing received), but comes with a shorter duration and shares resources with Lustrate and Indom and SS.

Excog is a slightly more powerful Tetra that you precast instaed....but comes at the cost of sharing resources with Lustrate and Indom and SS.

Aetherpact is a more powerful Regen, but comes at the cost of burning resources that require Aetherflow charges that you only generate by using the above abilities while Eos or Selene (not Seraph) are available and in combat and in range. (If any of those aren't true, using Aetherflow abilities does not built Aetherpact ability)....oh, and it can also only be on one target at a time and prevents that fairy from doing ANYTHING else while active.

Aetherflow is like part of an Assize that doesn't do damage and doesn't cure party members but restores a bit more MP and has a longer cooldown and activates the SCH equivalent of the Lily gauge that WHM don't need to do anything to activate....oh, and it can also only be used in combat, too.

Adlo is a potentially slightly more powerful Divine Benison that has less of a cooldown but requires a cast time and is weaker if not timed properly, or a less powerful Cure II that doesn't have a Freecure buff but can be cast a bit earlier.

Physick is literally a less powerful Cure that also doesn't have the chance to make Cure II free.

Succor is a potentially slightly more powerful Medica that is weaker if not timed properly, or a much weaker Cure III with a wider range.

Fey Illumination is a less powerful Temperance, unless Seraph is out, in which case it's still a less powerful Temperance.

Fey Blessing is basically Plenary Indulgence except for cast later, and costs Aetherflow, and requires the correct fairy out.

Dissipation makes SCH heals kinda like WHM heals somewhat for a bit in potency, but at the cost of no fairy (read: no gauge buildilng) and provides a bit more access to the pull of shared abilities, but on a 3m cooldown.

Seraph is a 2m cooldown that makes fairy healing almost as strong as a regen with some minor shields and enables two basically free succors within a roughly 15s timeframe (after accounting for animations)...so it's kinda like a weaker Presence of Mind, perhaps?...of course without any DPS utilization if raw healing isn't needed.

Emergency tactics basically converts the shields into raw healing, making them more like traditional WHM heals, but on a 15s cooldown.

Recitation is basically Thin Air but only for healing abilities, and (i'll have to check back again tonight, but IIRC also only works for one cast)

[Does not exist] is like Benediction.

There's a reason the raw numbers are higher, and it's quite arguable to say that it's because of WHM versatility.

**LariaKirin** · 07-12-2019 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by galbsadi

Thing is, it's not THAT versatile, really.

[...]

There's a reason the raw numbers are higher, and it's quite arguable to say that it's because of WHM versatility.

The raw numbers are higher because the raw numbers are higher. They have nothing to do with versatility.

The rest is just olympic level mental gymnastics in an attempt to compare abilities one to one. You're comparing a GCD (Solace) with an OGCD (Lustrate) and saying they're "basically" similar, lol.

First of all, some corrections: WD is not on the GCD, it is an OGCD. Fey Blessing does not cost aetherflow, neither does Aetherpact. They are byproducts of using your Aetherflow stacks.

Versatility means SCH has an answer to everything:
- Need direct heals? Indom, Fey Blessing, Seraph
- Need regen? WD, Soil
- Need mitigation? Shields, Soil, Seraph
All you need to do is look at how SCH heals. Everything SCH uses regularly is on the OGCD, with the exception of Succor.

Not only that, but since Glare is higher potency than Broil III, WHM pays a bigger cost for every GCD used.

Assize does not even count because it's a DPS cooldown. Perhaps they should remove the damage portion of it.

**Connor** · 07-11-2019 08:42 PM

I feel like Scholar’s performance particularly is hard to gauge through averages, because I think the recent changes have actually created a bigger skill gap between ‘average’ players and ‘top tier players’, at least in terms of healing efficiency and taking advantage of DPS openings.

It’ll be interesting to see how they decide to approach this. If they buff Scholar / Astrologian damage to White Mage’s levels healers will contributing huge amounts of damage to raids. If they need White Mage’s Damage, then what is it supposed to bring?

Also as an aside, I still it’s sad that performance in the ‘healer’ role is measured purely by DPS and how much healing you can get away with skipping. I feel like the devs intention was to have healers judged for more than just how much DPS they even, even if their intention didn’t match their actions

**Billythepancake** · 07-11-2019 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Nujana

On a personal note:
Buffing the potencies does not help eliminate the inherent issue of SCH right now which for me is - boredom.
They could buff my Broil potency to 500, (making SCH laughably OP) I would still not touch it, because they sucked the fun out of the job.

Exactly this. I wish people would realize the issue with scholar right now isn't "muh deeps", its that we're not doing anything. Like, I'd be 100% okay if they cut broils potency in half if it meant I could have more dots and energy drain back. Scholar right now honestly feels like you could play it on an Atari controller. Most people just want to press more buttons, we dont want to be reduced go mindless 1 button spam.

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