DRK redesign details explained

[TouchandFeel]

I almost wonder if they should change the additional effect on Carve and Spit to be a self-heal that would be good for single target, share the recast with Abyssal and tweak some of the numbers on other abilities to compensate for the slight loss of damage and mp gain from linking them together.
That way you basically have an AoE attack+self-heal to use in packs and a single target version to use for bosses, use the one for the situation you are in.

[EusisLandale]

I almost wonder if they should change the additional effect on Carve and Spit to be a self-heal that would be good for single target, share the recast with Abyssal and tweak some of the numbers on other abilities to compensate for the slight loss of damage and mp gain from linking them together.
That way you basically have an AoE attack+self-heal to use in packs and a single target version to use for bosses, use the one for the situation you are in.

I'll admit, I'm having a hard time finding the logic here. Why do you want them to have a shared recast time? What does that change even accomplish?

[TouchandFeel]

I'll admit, I'm having a hard time finding the logic here. Why do you want them to have a shared recast time? What does that change even accomplish?

Because if they weren't coupled and taking into account the other changes I went over then you would have access to two self-heal on a 60s cool down which is double what other tanks get like WAR with Equilibrium. This would be negligible in single target situations but could be quite excessive when fighting packs. The solution presented was to have a single target version and an AoE version.

Another possibility is move the MP gain to Abyssal Drain, set to a single amount which is independent on how many enemies are hit, but then the name might not make sense. Then give the Carve and Spit the burst heal with a higher cure potency.

Even another possibility is to keep everything as is and just add a smaller potency self-heal to CnS so that when considered together with the self-heal from AD is pretty much balances out with the other tanks.

The crux of it all is that DRK appears to have gotten a bit shafted in the self-heal department and that should be rectified.

[Fourbestintoner]

2 years rework and it's still worse than the other tanks and now even worse than before, and shadowskin, scourge and dark dance still haven't come back.
Can't abyssal spam in dungeons anymore it's now as useful as dark passenger, living dead still require to be healed 100% instead of the 50% it should be, lost sole survivor for no reason, dark mind nerfed to 20% for no reason, blood weapon no longer reducing cast time for no reason, the shadow does random things, the rotation is still souleater spam, delirium is now a worse unga bunga release without the crit. Absolutely amazing rework.
If they wanted people to stop playing drk and switch to gun they should have just said so.

[EusisLandale]

I almost wonder if they should change the additional effect on Carve and Spit to be a self-heal that would be good for single target, share the recast with Abyssal

Because if they weren't coupled and taking into account the other changes I went over then you would have access to two self-heal on a 60s cool down which is double what other tanks get like WAR with Equilibrium. .

Share the recast. But somehow actually have access two self heals. That are mutually exclusive for being on the same recast time.
You're making even less sense now.

Even another possibility is to keep everything as is and just add a smaller potency self-heal to CnS so that when considered together with the self-heal from AD is pretty much balances out with the other tanks.

Making C&S heal both HP and MP could help, yes. Far more than making them share a timer and effect. They'd still be weaker in comparison with the numbers as they are now. It'd be better if they just brought up AD's heal and leave all else alone, no recast sharing especially. Even just bringing it to 800 or so would seem fair, since of the noncombo self heals the tanks have AD is the only one doing damage.

[Lyth]

This new rework has no soul. I have even less of a sense of the job's identity now. Superficially, there's a lot of flash, but mechanically, I don't see a theme. It might be a sort of "magical tank", but looking at the other tanks kits, it's probably more accurately just a "weaker against physical damage" tank. The removal of the speed boost on Blood Weapon, as well as the longer recasts on several of the oGCDs (Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain) means that the job is going to be a lot slower, and speed was historically the big selling point from a gameplay perspective.

There's a lot of homogenisation as far as defensives and utility goes, but most of it seems to be in favour of WAR. I think that even if DRK brought a potency advantage that it would offset this. And a number of the other core issues mentioned previously (Living Dead in particular) just don't seem to be addressed.

Living Shadow seems to be an unnecessary layer of clunk. A few people have already pointed out the delays both in summoning it as well as before it starts taking action. The fixed rotation (which includes using AoE moves in single target) seems silly, but I suppose there are limitations to how much you can do with AI. Offensively, I think the fact that it only does 40% of the damage that you would do, despite using AoE moves in single target, speaks for itself. If it ends up having some utility value, they'll probably refine it and copy over better versions to the other tanks next expansion anyways. I think if this shadow functioned more like Bunshin, I might be interested, but right now, not so much.

All in all, Gunbreaker seems like it's the closest thing to the old HW DRK. There are a few issues with personal defensives (in particular Camouflage, which suffers from the usual issue with being damage type specific, as well as Superbolide), but most importantly, it looks fast and fun to play. I'm really glad that they didn't charge for the physical CE yet, because it doesn't look like I'll be needing that DRK statue anymore (it was a bit of a frivolous purchase anyways). Hopefully DRK gets looked at again at some point, but given the Stormblood media tour, I don't have any faith in their ability to fix the job before release. If anything, you'll probably see more potency and recast nerfs to the job in the final version, which is what happened the last time. Either way, best of luck.

Goodbye Cloud and Cecil. Hello Squall.

[EusisLandale]

This new rework has no soul. I have even less of a sense of the job's identity now. Superficially, there's a lot of flash, but mechanically, I don't see a theme. It might be a sort of "magical tank", but looking at the other tanks kits, it's probably more accurately just a "weaker against physical damage" tank. The removal of the speed boost on Blood Weapon, as well as the longer recasts on several of the oGCDs (Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain) means that the job is going to be a lot slower, and speed was historically the big selling point from a gameplay perspective.

Abyssal Drain itself wasn't an oGCD until this, it was just Salted Earth and Dark Passenger for oGCD aoes. In a three minute period we'll be getting five of them, down from a possible seven, but there's also no resource conflict there so it'll be more reliable.
Beyond that we've got Plunge, Carve & Spit, and The Blackest Night, sitting on the same recasts they used to have, and we've got the Flood/Edge skills filling in where Dark Arts was.
I don't think it's going to turn out to be too much slower compared to how it is now, outside of the lost Blood Weapon haste.

[TouchandFeel]

You're making even less sense now.

Look at what I wrote and what you quoted again, I said weren't, as in if they weren't coupled (i.e. sharing a recast timer) and both had a self-heal attached, it would be two self-heal abilities that could be used independently within 60s.
That seems pretty clear to me.

Look it's simple, right now the only burst self-heal DRK has is Abyssal Drain which is a 200 pot cure and from what I have seen is per enemy hit which means you need to hit 6 enemies to equal the 1200 pot cure of Equilibrium which is doable in decent sized mob packs. The problem is in single-target like boss fights, where it really matters, it only does a 200 pot cure which is basically nothing.

Because of that I proposed adding a larger potency cure, say 1000-1200 pot, to Carve and Spit because it is a single-target OGCD that costs no resource and is also on a 60s recast timer. That then gives DRK a fairly equivalent self-heal to what other tanks get that works in single-target situations.

However, if DRK got that heal on Carve and Spit in addition to what they already have on Abyssal Drain, that is two self-heals within 60s which is potentially quite a bit more than the equivalents of other tanks, such as the 1200 pot cure from Equilibrium which is on a 60s timer.

In a single-target situation having both available would provide, within a 60s window, a 200 pot cure from AD and a 1000-1200 pot cure from CnS for a total of 1200-1400 potency of self-healing. Fairly equitable and no big deal.
Now in an AoE situation with let's just say 5 enemies, that's a 1000 pot cure from Abyssal Drain and a 1000-1200 pot cure from Carve and Spit for a total of 2000-2200. That is quite a bit more and definitely not equitable.

To avoid the latter situation above I proposed the two abilities share a recast, therefore when you use one the other also goes on cool down making it so you can only ever use one every 60s and they can't be doubled up. I then also proposed to have the potential losses of dps and little bit of MP added somewhere else in the kit to compensate from no longer being able to use both separately.

The end result being two separate abilities that do some damage and provide a burst self-heal, just one that is meant for AoE situations and one that is meant for single-target situations.

Sure there are other approaches to address the underlying problem of poor self-healing for DRK in single-target, some of which I'm sure would be better, but the reasoning behind why I proposed linking their recasts is sound.

[EusisLandale]

Look it's simple, right now the only burst self-heal DRK has is Abyssal Drain which is a 200 pot cure and from what I have seen is per enemy hit which means you need to hit 6 enemies to equal the 1200 pot cure of Equilibrium which is doable in decent sized mob packs. The problem is in single-target like boss fights, where it really matters, it only does a 200 pot cure which is basically nothing.

Because of that I proposed adding a larger potency cure, say 1000-1200 pot, to Carve and Spit because it is a single-target OGCD that costs no resource and is also on a 60s recast timer. That then gives DRK a fairly equivalent self-heal to what other tanks get that works in single-target situations.

I was running on the assumption that AD's just a single heal no matter what now given the new wording. If it's still per hit, the 200 is definitely fine in all cases.

Ok, single target situation only.
Dark Knight has one combo, Souleater. 300 Potency heal. They're never going to stop healing. 8 Combos a minute, give or take, so around an average of 2400. And then 200 from AD. 2600
Gunbreaker's got two combos, one of which seems to have a bit of a wait before being able to repeat it while the other heals for 150 and shields as much. Assuming the 30 second Gnashing Fang combo is right, we're looking at maybe around 6 self heal combos a minute, so 1650. Then the regen adds another 1200. 3000, but some of it is in shielding and regens so higher is a fair trade for lack of immediate application.
Warrior's got two combos, one of which needs to see use every 3-4 combos to keep their damage up and another that heals for 250. Again another 6 self heal combos give or take, 1500 average, and 1200 immediate. 2700.
Paladin's got Clemency, which interferes with them doing damage at all.

Honestly, Paladin looks like the one screwed on self healing to me since the power comes at such a high price. Dark Knight's isn't the strongest to be sure, but it's the most consistent.

[Jojokomoko]

I've been watching youtube videos especially in-depth ShB tank analysis from Xeno, and is it really worse than SB DRK? It can't be, right?

I thought people have been saying that SB is the lowest point of DRK? Not talking about job identity or how it plays but compare to its previous incarnations.