Thread: Samurai 5.0 Changes

i didn't mind Hagakure i didn't like just throwing out raw midare with no buffs up what so ever and didnt like wasting sen setting up buffs again

does make me wish with it gone Shoha would just refresh the Jinpu and Shifu buff similar to monks new skill that holds grease lightning

Originally Posted by Nominous

Not everyone viewed those interesting choices as fun choices, necessarily, or at least not me.

I don't know about other people, but we will have 17 battle classes in Shadowbringers, I think there's plenty of class and gameplay choices for everyone to pick something they have fun with.
I don't have fun with all the classes either, so I chose those I have fun with.

I fully agree that there are tweaks that could be made to smoothen out the gameplay, and while I can't speak for certain until I play the class at lvl 80, I must say that I'm torn about the removal of Hagakure.
There's no doubt the ease of play will be better, but taking away the little things that distinguish the class' depth might confine SAM to boredom levels.
As for shoha I think the analogy made with plenary indulgence was spot on, it's a situational-niche inside a niche pretty much. I suspect SAM will have to undergo readjustments in a few patches.

But again, very speculative claims atm, cannot speak for certain until the expansion hits.

Originally Posted by Nominous

You said interesting/meaningful choices again. Not everyone viewed those interesting choices as fun choices, necessarily, or at least not me. That's the thing, you can recognize the positive characteristics of an ability (variety, flexibility), but that's not where the conversation ends. It's not just, "Well it has positive characteristics, therefore it is a net positive experience for SAM to have it." It should also consider the fun factor, if it makes sense in the core design and goal of the Job, how it feels to use, and how smoothly it fits in with the rest of the rotation. Let's explore some of those scenarios.

I understand, let's take a look.

Originally Posted by Nominous

I don't find it fun to have 8 seconds left on Higanbana, have the Sen I need to refresh it smoothly, but ALSO have Hagakure coming off cooldown at a similar time. This happens the SECOND time I need to re-apply Bana, so just 2 minutes in. The decision there is un-fun because I have to make a decision of what to neglect. Do I refresh my DoT with the one Sen, which eats significantly into the off-cooldown time of Hagakure, since I have to build 3 Sen again? Do I use Hagakure sub-optimally at 2 Sen, which by the way, also means I'm letting the DoT fall off for multiple ticks? Or do I use Hagakure optimally at 3 Sen, eating into off-cooldown time of Hagakure, AND letting the DoT fall off for even MORE ticks? None of my decisions there are fun. They all have a caveat, or sometimes, multiple.

You meant third bana right? Second one happens at around 1 minute and 15 seconds. Well, there it is. Exactly what I meant about not fully mastering an ability, thus leaving a bad taste after utilizing it. What if I told you there is a third option: use 3 sen haga and also re-apply 3rd bana exactly as it drops? When I say interesting decision making, I'm not talking about what skill to neglect, but instead how to use them at their maximum potential, while at same time getting the gratification of having a powerful rotation that feels good to use and that you actually put in the effort to learn.
In this example, have your rotation skip 2 GCDs ahead. To do so, have your second bana applied from the Yukikaze Sen instead of Gekko, skipping 1 GCD. On your second Meikyo, skip Yukikaze. Use only Kasha and Gekko without dropping any buffs, gaining raw potency DPS, and now being 2 GCDs ahead in your rotation if you performed both correctly. You'll have a perfect 3 sen haga this way with a near-perfect bana refresh, all while gaining a ton of dps in the process and feeling awesome after pulling it off successfully.

Originally Posted by Nominous

When Hagakure is still on cooldown (for only about 2-3 more seconds), you're maxed on Sen, and about to complete another combo. Again, you have to choose what to neglect. You have to choose between using Midare, because you don't want to start delaying GCD's to hit Hagakure optimally, or you can what... delay GCD's, or worse, finish the combo without gaining any Sen? Not the choices I want to be making.

Another good example, many ways to fix it. Do a Gekko or Kasha Sen Bana prior to this so you delay your rotation by 1 GCD without losing DPS. Do one Meikyo GCD before using Hagakure so the next Hagakure comes off CD 1 GCD later. Use Yukikaze on the last Meikyo as well so Hagakure comes off CD 1 GCD later. Either of those three would work. If you can't bother to incorporate those changes in your rotation, simply do Hissatsu: Yaten + Enpi as a convenient 420 pontecy filler after finishing a combo, which would also successfully delay your rotation by 1 GCD for a perfect Haga.
If you get to a point where you 're maxed on Sen, Haga has 3 seconds CD and you about to finish a combo, that's not the skill's fault. It's the player's.

Originally Posted by Nominous

Hagakure distracts from that core design and rotation. As a DRG I wouldn't want to sacrifice Eyes (LoTD) for more jumps. As a MNK, I wouldn't want to sacrifice GL stacks for more Chakra. As a SMN I wouldn't want to sacrifice Bahamut for more Aetherflow. So on, so forth.

Please refer to my last post where I mention a way to remove Hagakure, give more Midares, all while still keeping samurais complexity intact. Removing the skill entirely was a bad call no matter how I look at it.

Also, I appreciate the respect and time you took to listen to a opinion contrary to yours. If it's worth anything, I really hope we both have fun with the way Samurai plays at 5.0, even if I still have a bad feeling about it.

Speaking of bad feelings, it was mentioned in a post before, but starting a dungeon boss fight with 2 Sen and no buff will be awkward too :/
Just the idea of having both Kasha and Gekko but not Shifu or Jinpu and have to go through Yukikaze on the boss first...
Then off we go to decide: Do I Jinpu, or do I Shifu? (Obviously I would go Shifu, because come on, its Shifu)

Point is that the result is a non-fully buffed Midare, and I may not like to do a bunch of the same, but I really dislike not doing a full buff of the one and only...

Originally Posted by Nominous

That, and I feel that the Sen/Iaijutsu rotation is the core design of the Job, while Kenki is more like filler. And Hagakure distracts from that core design and rotation. As a DRG I wouldn't want to sacrifice Eyes (LoTD) for more jumps. As a MNK, I wouldn't want to sacrifice GL stacks for more Chakra. As a SMN I wouldn't want to sacrifice Bahamut for more Aetherflow. So on, so forth.

I guess that's where the heart of the conflict comes from. I don't find Kenki any less meaningful than Iajutsu. They're both damage. Kenki damage comes from positioning, Ability-Weaponskill sync, and avoiding overcapping. Iajutsu damage comes from... avoiding Sen overcapping. To me, therefore, Midare is more like the maximum leniency timer attached to everything else, like a "use it or waste it" CD, rather than a pursueable objective.

And I guess you could say I liked Hagakure as much as I did because it interacted with both Ability-based damage and Weaponskills. If Iajutsu were the hard core of the rotation -- like a stone to which all else was anchored -- Hagakure, Meikyo Shisui, Trick Attack- and Jump-sync, and (where made viable by downtime and enough Skill Speed and alignment) Yaten-Enpi could be considered the actual game of a Samurai.

I can, see, though, why it would feel detracting in other senses. We can consider its possible balance as being somewhere between obligatory -- via a free weaponskill or average combo ppGCD -- and utility -- whereby it generates no actual potency beyond Midare, but instead only allows for syncing Higan, Goken, Meikyo, Trick Attack, and jumps. I'd take no issue with Hagakure being less something to pursue in itself and more of merely a means by which to pursue other mechanical aspects of Samurai's macrorotational priorities. I just don't want to lose my means of manipulation.

Originally Posted by Lilyth

Stuff

I agree with you.
With the removal of haga, samurai is even more easy with even less complex with the little complexity it had.

Pretty much making it kinda harder to distinguish yourself from a casual sam to a pro/veteran Sam, as if samurai wasn't already easy enough.

The only thing to give yourself an edge is just seigan(which is still bad dps despite the crappy 20 potency buff) and fight knowledge but even then. knowing the fight better just boils down to more fight knowledge than samurai skill.

Though I have to say not really gonna miss Haga, anything to put samurai higher on the dps list so we're worth taking is fine by me. We'll see how brain dead samurai is gonna be; but seeing as I played samurai for 2 years.
I can already tell you, samurai is pretty much gonna play like pre haga samurai, with you doing midare and bana mostly...only with more shinten.

Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

...only with more shinten.

I would say "some" Shinten, not more.
We will definitely see a cut down on the Shinten count.