Samurai 5.0 Changes

**Lilyth** · 06-06-2019 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Nominous

It's not that Hagakure didn't add depth. It's that depth isn't always synonymous with fun, necessarily. It's that "meaningful" choices aren't always "fun" choices to have to make. And in that sense, I have more fun with Midare than I do with Hagakure.

I can totally see where you're coming from, and I can assure you that everyone agrees that Midare feels better to use than Hagakure. However, my issue was never the removal of the skill in itself, but the lack of depth Sam's rotation will have in its absence. All the interesting decision making scenarios and multiple ways to build your rotation around it are gone. Now we get 3 sen and always do Midare, over and over again. I can't stress enough how mindlessly boring and repetitive that sounds compared to the many ways you can optimize samurai today. Give me some other way to utilize that Sen! Always doing the same thing is just sad.

Originally Posted by Nominous

Hagakure was awkward at BEST, after your first/second use. And I don't think people viewed it as a positive experience that they could, "Just change a couple GCD's in your rotation" to make it work.

Slightly more complex than your regular "come off CD/press it button" is a more elegant description. I can't see removing something 'cause people were unwilling to put in the effort to learn, thus having a "clunky" feeling, as anything other than reinforcement of below-average play and catering to lazyness. Haga is a solid CD and if feels really good to use too once your master it. Alas, its only sin was requiring a little more thought prior to pressing... so it had to die.

Originally Posted by Nominous

Hagakure sacrifices the huge damage, finisher-type ability you spend time building towards, to spam a bunch of smaller hits that (even if they are a DPS gain) don't feel as impactful, and maybe less importantly, just looked lame in comparison.

Originally Posted by Leonus

Not going to lie, I hated Hagakure. I still dislike it for the most part. I am glad it's going away, was it useful? Most certainly. To me, however, it kept taking my midare, since it has a higher priority and I never really liked that. I never really liked how one of the hardest hitting techniques in my arsenal had to be deffered to something else pretty consistently.

I see this being thrown out a lot, how people just wanna use Midare because it's cooler and Haga doesn't look impactful at all. To be honest, there are so many ways they could've have addressed this concern without dialing the job's rotation all the way back to level 60.

For example: have the new double Iaijutsu skill replace Hagakure. Instead of just being a copy-paste of the Iaijutsu used last, have it always be Midare. It would have the same CD as Haga and consume as many Sen as you had stored prior. Its potency would also vary depending on the amount of Sen spent. 1 Sen - weaker than Midare / 2 Sen - same pot as the Midare we have now / 3 Sen - 30% stronger than Midare, new cooler animation, can be used with Kaiten.

This was just a 3 minute example, but even with it, people would have an even better looking (and stronger) finisher, Samurai's rotation diversity would still exist, and you would have at your disposal a powerful new ability instead of mindlessly spamming even more of the same skill we have already been spamming for this entire expansion.

But nope, remove it. Copy paste the last Iaijutsu used, call it new.
I'm sorry but I can't agree with that in any way.

**Shurrikhan** · 06-06-2019 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Not-Hagakure is superior in every way.

But it just isn't as compelling.

Tfw:

Sure, it deals more damage... (until everything is just balanced around it dealing more damage, which just means gameplay is shifted -- maybe some little things for the better but almost certainly mostly for the worst, since that's the only way to shift when the internal breakpoints are already nearly perfect -- but you still, overall, deal the exact same damage because we aren't about to make SAM mandatory just because we added a new skill...)
But, is it any more fun?

Originally Posted by Lilyth

snip

Honestly, you could fix Hagakure with a mere two things:

Append the tooltips on Kenki-consuming and -generating skills, noting the potency-per-kenki efficiency of their skills. Less informed players, too, now understand its benefit.
Give Hagakure a more impressive animation. Give Ability-based generations of Kenki the red-lightning sword visuals from Ikishoten, fading over time and Kenki consumption. It now looks cool.

But to get to the real matter at hand: What new mechanics, rather than a "level 62 (basically 50) rotation, but with your most spammed spender repeated" could be included with Shadowbringers? What new game-within-the-game of the class can we make appealing? What new puzzles can augment SAM gameplay?

Just to spitball:

Sen spenders create windows of opportunity.
Sen spenders create further buffs (for softer windows of opportunity and interplay).
Priority-crossover. Normally AoE skills can in some instances be made AoE, normally infrequent skills can on occasion be used in more rapid succession, and/or normally single-target skills used as centerpoints in AoE.
(Manageable) rotating thematic priorities and interplay.
Combo-trimming via aligned resources. (For instance, certain effects might make your next Gyoten allow you to advance your combo by a further step. Lenient enough window between the action which triggers this effect, the Gyoten, and the advanced combo itself.)
Super-Iajutsu / combinatorial Iajutsu / sequential-combinatorial Iajutsu.
Etc., etc....

Originally Posted by Duskane

i didn't mind Hagakure i didn't like just throwing out raw midare with no buffs up what so ever and didnt like wasting sen setting up buffs again

Why would you EVER do either of those things?

**Nominous** · 06-06-2019 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Lilyth

I can totally see where you're coming from, and I can assure you that everyone feels the same that Midare feels better to use than Hagakure. However, my issue was never the removal of the skill in itself, but the lack of depth Sam's rotation will have in its absence. All the interesting decision making scenarios

You said interesting/meaningful choices again. Not everyone viewed those interesting choices as fun choices, necessarily, or at least not me. That's the thing, you can recognize the positive characteristics of an ability (variety, flexibility), but that's not where the conversation ends. It's not just, "Well it has positive characteristics, therefore it is a net positive experience for SAM to have it." It should also consider the fun factor, if it makes sense in the core design and goal of the Job, how it feels to use, and how smoothly it fits in with the rest of the rotation. Let's explore some of those scenarios.

I don't find it fun to have 8 seconds left on Higanbana, have the Sen I need to refresh it smoothly, but ALSO have Hagakure coming off cooldown at a similar time. This happens the SECOND time I need to re-apply Bana, so just 2 minutes in. The decision there is un-fun because I have to make a decision of what to neglect. Do I refresh my DoT with the one Sen, which eats significantly into the off-cooldown time of Hagakure, since I have to build 3 Sen again? Do I use Hagakure sub-optimally at 2 Sen, which by the way, also means I'm letting the DoT fall off for multiple ticks? Or do I use Hagakure optimally at 3 Sen, eating into off-cooldown time of Hagakure, AND letting the DoT fall off for even MORE ticks? None of my decisions there are fun. They all have a caveat, or sometimes, multiple.

When Hagakure is still on cooldown (for only about 2-3 more seconds), you're maxed on Sen, and about to complete another combo. Again, you have to choose what to neglect. You have to choose between using Midare, because you don't want to start delaying GCD's to hit Hagakure optimally, or you can what... delay GCD's, or worse, finish the combo without gaining any Sen? Not the choices I want to be making.

Just a couple. Now, that's up to you to decide if you find decisions like those fun. I personally don't. That, and I feel that the Sen/Iaijutsu rotation is the core design of the Job, while Kenki is more like filler. And Hagakure distracts from that core design and rotation. As a DRG I wouldn't want to sacrifice Eyes (LoTD) for more jumps. As a MNK, I wouldn't want to sacrifice GL stacks for more Chakra. As a SMN I wouldn't want to sacrifice Bahamut for more Aetherflow. So on, so forth.

So for me, Hagakure is a net NEGATIVE experience as a SAM, even though I can see it, and respect it, for it's positive traits.

**Serret** · 06-06-2019 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Nominous

Not everyone viewed those interesting choices as fun choices, necessarily, or at least not me.

I don't know about other people, but we will have 17 battle classes in Shadowbringers, I think there's plenty of class and gameplay choices for everyone to pick something they have fun with.
I don't have fun with all the classes either, so I chose those I have fun with.

I fully agree that there are tweaks that could be made to smoothen out the gameplay, and while I can't speak for certain until I play the class at lvl 80, I must say that I'm torn about the removal of Hagakure.
There's no doubt the ease of play will be better, but taking away the little things that distinguish the class' depth might confine SAM to boredom levels.
As for shoha I think the analogy made with plenary indulgence was spot on, it's a situational-niche inside a niche pretty much. I suspect SAM will have to undergo readjustments in a few patches.

But again, very speculative claims atm, cannot speak for certain until the expansion hits.

**Lilyth** · 06-07-2019 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Nominous

You said interesting/meaningful choices again. Not everyone viewed those interesting choices as fun choices, necessarily, or at least not me. That's the thing, you can recognize the positive characteristics of an ability (variety, flexibility), but that's not where the conversation ends. It's not just, "Well it has positive characteristics, therefore it is a net positive experience for SAM to have it." It should also consider the fun factor, if it makes sense in the core design and goal of the Job, how it feels to use, and how smoothly it fits in with the rest of the rotation. Let's explore some of those scenarios.

I understand, let's take a look.

Originally Posted by Nominous

I don't find it fun to have 8 seconds left on Higanbana, have the Sen I need to refresh it smoothly, but ALSO have Hagakure coming off cooldown at a similar time. This happens the SECOND time I need to re-apply Bana, so just 2 minutes in. The decision there is un-fun because I have to make a decision of what to neglect. Do I refresh my DoT with the one Sen, which eats significantly into the off-cooldown time of Hagakure, since I have to build 3 Sen again? Do I use Hagakure sub-optimally at 2 Sen, which by the way, also means I'm letting the DoT fall off for multiple ticks? Or do I use Hagakure optimally at 3 Sen, eating into off-cooldown time of Hagakure, AND letting the DoT fall off for even MORE ticks? None of my decisions there are fun. They all have a caveat, or sometimes, multiple.

You meant third bana right? Second one happens at around 1 minute and 15 seconds. Well, there it is. Exactly what I meant about not fully mastering an ability, thus leaving a bad taste after utilizing it. What if I told you there is a third option: use 3 sen haga and also re-apply 3rd bana exactly as it drops? When I say interesting decision making, I'm not talking about what skill to neglect, but instead how to use them at their maximum potential, while at same time getting the gratification of having a powerful rotation that feels good to use and that you actually put in the effort to learn.
In this example, have your rotation skip 2 GCDs ahead. To do so, have your second bana applied from the Yukikaze Sen instead of Gekko, skipping 1 GCD. On your second Meikyo, skip Yukikaze. Use only Kasha and Gekko without dropping any buffs, gaining raw potency DPS, and now being 2 GCDs ahead in your rotation if you performed both correctly. You'll have a perfect 3 sen haga this way with a near-perfect bana refresh, all while gaining a ton of dps in the process and feeling awesome after pulling it off successfully.

Originally Posted by Nominous

When Hagakure is still on cooldown (for only about 2-3 more seconds), you're maxed on Sen, and about to complete another combo. Again, you have to choose what to neglect. You have to choose between using Midare, because you don't want to start delaying GCD's to hit Hagakure optimally, or you can what... delay GCD's, or worse, finish the combo without gaining any Sen? Not the choices I want to be making.

Another good example, many ways to fix it. Do a Gekko or Kasha Sen Bana prior to this so you delay your rotation by 1 GCD without losing DPS. Do one Meikyo GCD before using Hagakure so the next Hagakure comes off CD 1 GCD later. Use Yukikaze on the last Meikyo as well so Hagakure comes off CD 1 GCD later. Either of those three would work. If you can't bother to incorporate those changes in your rotation, simply do Hissatsu: Yaten + Enpi as a convenient 420 pontecy filler after finishing a combo, which would also successfully delay your rotation by 1 GCD for a perfect Haga.
If you get to a point where you 're maxed on Sen, Haga has 3 seconds CD and you about to finish a combo, that's not the skill's fault. It's the player's.

Originally Posted by Nominous

Hagakure distracts from that core design and rotation. As a DRG I wouldn't want to sacrifice Eyes (LoTD) for more jumps. As a MNK, I wouldn't want to sacrifice GL stacks for more Chakra. As a SMN I wouldn't want to sacrifice Bahamut for more Aetherflow. So on, so forth.

Please refer to my last post where I mention a way to remove Hagakure, give more Midares, all while still keeping samurais complexity intact. Removing the skill entirely was a bad call no matter how I look at it.

Also, I appreciate the respect and time you took to listen to a opinion contrary to yours. If it's worth anything, I really hope we both have fun with the way Samurai plays at 5.0, even if I still have a bad feeling about it.

**xxvaynxx** · 06-07-2019 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Lilyth

Stuff

I agree with you.
With the removal of haga, samurai is even more easy with even less complex with the little complexity it had.

Pretty much making it kinda harder to distinguish yourself from a casual sam to a pro/veteran Sam, as if samurai wasn't already easy enough.

The only thing to give yourself an edge is just seigan(which is still bad dps despite the crappy 20 potency buff) and fight knowledge but even then. knowing the fight better just boils down to more fight knowledge than samurai skill.

Though I have to say not really gonna miss Haga, anything to put samurai higher on the dps list so we're worth taking is fine by me. We'll see how brain dead samurai is gonna be; but seeing as I played samurai for 2 years.
I can already tell you, samurai is pretty much gonna play like pre haga samurai, with you doing midare and bana mostly...only with more shinten.

**Arkenne** · 06-07-2019 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

...only with more shinten.

I would say "some" Shinten, not more.
We will definitely see a cut down on the Shinten count.

**xxvaynxx** · 06-07-2019 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Arkenne

I would say "some" Shinten, not more.
We will definitely see a cut down on the Shinten count.

you could say that but with yuki giving you 15 kenki instead of 10, it kinda makes up for the 10 kenki lost from haga.
So you'll still do the same amount of shinten.
You'll gain that other 5 from a GCD, yuki,jinpu or your combo starter.

Also I meant more as in before samurai got haga.

**Arkenne** · 06-07-2019 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

yuki giving you 15 kenki instead of 10
Also I meant more as in before samurai got haga.

Hrm... =-=
Not sure if it convinces me enough... I mean, I see your point. At 52 you'll be able to Kaiten every Midare, if positionals are done right...

Still Yuki will need to happen at least 8 times between each Ikishoten to generate as much satisfaction as Hagakure does now Shinten wise...
As Hagakure was not only making 10 extra points at its best, but was happening 20 seconds faster... (I mean, even with 2 Sen is still a better Kenki per second than Ikishoten).
At best it will feel better than what it is now from lvl 52 to 67... Kenki wise...

It still feels sad... :/

**Nominous** · 06-07-2019 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lilyth

Also, I appreciate the respect and time you took to listen to a opinion contrary to yours. If it's worth anything, I really hope we both have fun with the way Samurai plays at 5.0, even if I still have a bad feeling about it.

This actually makes me somewhat emotional lol. I'll separate this from everything else I have to say because it makes me like, disproportionately happy. It's really kind of you to be as considerate to say that, when it feels like people just want to hate you for this kind of opinion lol. I really appreciate the warm words!

That being said, I see your points. It's really just a matter of those things not really being entirely cohesive, intuitive, or fun to do. I totally, totally understand the appeal, don't get me wrong. It's nice to be rewarded for solving quasi-complex rotation riddles. It's nice to be rewarded for having a keen understanding of what needs to be micro-managed to support other aspects of your rotation.

For some, that provides a negativity-free experience with the ability. Like you said, it's hard to find any downside. You feel rewarded, it offers flexibility, and it offers variety and depth. For some, Hagakure's positive characteristics are outweighed by the negative experience of having to find work-arounds to accommodate it, in what would otherwise be a relatively smooth rotation.

And I think it's unfortunate, because that comes off as not wanting complexity, or being against critical thought. When really, it's just that I don't think this is the kind that makes sense, at least in the current design philosophy of "Core rotation>Fillers>Finisher>Repeat". And like Shurrikan said, I think if you have no real care for the aesthetic, or damage numbers, or impact, and your only real desire is the mechanical aspect of a Job, I think there's really no argument to be made. At the point you feel like depth, complexity, and mechanics are all that matters, Hagakure is a clear win/win. I just think there's more to Jobs than what they provide mechanically. Because at that point, why even have particle effects and damage numbers or any of the minutiae?

Thread: Samurai 5.0 Changes

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Display

Hybrid View