Astrologian 5.0 Discussion

**Maltothoris** · 05-31-2019 01:32 PM

THe thing is for me this actually takes out some of the job fun out of in ultimate. Because a good amount of the dps checks there are really lenient. But all the cards in there felt useful in there, with the exception of Spire. Bole for some of the Bahamut tank busters and aoe bole for the trios, add phase and golden, ewer in case a healer or caster dies, Spear with potentially higher shields. Yes balance was probably the best but we were making the dps check even before Tenstrike with minimal balance use. The cards were just so much more useful in UCOB ultimate.

OF course, we have to see what content is like and if the rdps is still there despite these changes.

**Punslinger** · 05-31-2019 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Gemina

...while the other three are all just variations of what they ultimately do; Increase DMG. Yet, AST got to keep what was desired most. If I was a dev, I would feel like I just bought my daughter who loves ponies six of them, and then she got mad at me for it. Color me confused as eff.

Taking that logic to its extreme, why have ten DPS jobs when they all do basically the same thing: kill monsters until they die from it? Just make everybody a BLM. And why does BLM need eleventy dozen spells that all do damage? "Rotation?" There's one mathematically optimal rotation every BLM follows, therefore the job only offers the "illusion of choice," therefore the devs should just roll all BLM damage into a single I WIN button that they press on every GCD.

That's basically what's been done to AST's card system.

Execution matters. Executing a rotation on a training dummy is easy. Executing a rotation while dodging mechanics is hard, and what makes any MMO interesting. Knowing that Balance is the goal is easy. Making split-second decisions about how to use the cards you get, while dodging mechanics, DPSing the boss, and healing the raid? That's hard.

Nu-AST takes those decisions away. You can just randomly target any party member and throw any card at them and buff the party's damage. You can ignore seals completely, because the "penalty" is Divination being a tiny bit less awesome, once every three minutes. You can Netflix and chill while playing Nu-AST and still keep everyone buffed and alive.

**Suishouhime** · 05-31-2019 02:56 PM

I feel like a lot of the focus is currently on how Balance ties into endgame raiding optimisation and therefore the damage boost is just streaminlining, but people are forgetting that people play AST for other content as well: normal trials, dungeons, treasure maps, deep dungeons, non-Savage raids, and even things in the overworld like FATEs. I have the most fun doing dungeons and 24-mans with AST, for example, where Spire and Ewer still see pretty good use. Other users have already said, as well: if Balance was too good, why did they turn every card into Balance instead of just nerfing Balance?

Hell, you could've even removed Balance altogether and built on AST's versatility instead by having Divination be our ultimate: have it be its own unique stance, separate from Diurnal/Nocturnal, which gives cards different uses optimised for non-raiding content and raiding content for 20secs, or include more elements of the tarot by expanding on Minor Arcana.

When you combine the card changes with the fact that our l80 ability Neutral Sect seems to be in active conflict with SCH's Galvanise, effectively rendering SCH useless for 20s every 2 minutes, I dunno. I don't see the point. AST still seems just as essential as it was before because the damage boost is unique to us - we're just more boring to play. And also we're going to annoy SCHs a lot more with Neutral Sect. And we're also still not as good at pure healing as WHMs.

**Seraphor** · 05-31-2019 03:00 PM

My biggest concern is that because cards all do the same thing now, it'll be viewed as an unnecessarily convoluted system for what is essentially putting a 6% damage buff onto one or all party members, and by the time 6.0 or 7.0 job changes come around, they'll decide it's all unnecessary fluff and remove the card system entirely.
It'll just be:
Draw: Bestows a 5% damage buff on party member. 30s cooldown.
Minor Arcana: Bestows a 6% damage buff on all nearby party members. 3m cooldown.

**Mansion** · 05-31-2019 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rahspdoy

Its not that the cards are 'nerfed' is that you lack choices.

we 'had' 6 cards with 6 individual effects.

Now we have 2 cards, and the chance of 1 or 3 different 'seals' appearing above those 2 cards. Oh, and both cards to essentially the same exact thing. One just gives a better bonus to mele, while the other gives a better bonus to ranged.

They didnt 'nerf' the cards, they removed them. and gave us a coin to flip instead.

Yeah but they give you tools you act on RNG.
Yes we had 6 cards but :
- You never used Spire outside of Royal Road
- You never used Bole
- you scarcely used Ewer for MP, otherwise it was royal road.
- Arrow was not a good thing for some jobs
---- All this submitted to RNG. Having a bole come right for a Tank Buster is more than rare. Same for Ewer when someone is lacking MP.

Now it's just DMG up, and you cycle through Seals for Divination full potency (although like a said, 6% every 3minutes is too low in my opinion, unless you can stack it with individual cards)
I agree, it's less "challenging" than current cards but I don't know if it is really that bad, especially if fights need more healing and you Draw more frequently.

Also I'm grateful we are finally getting rid of this Sleeve Draw Scenario :

**Payadopa** · 05-31-2019 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mansion

- You never used Bole
- you scarcely used Ewer for MP, otherwise it was royal road.

I must have been dreaming then. I always use bole and ewer is awesome for MP using classes. I even keep an ewer in case a boss goes horribly wrong and I need to refresh my MP. These card changes are terrible.

**Seraphor** · 05-31-2019 09:20 PM

Even if Bole and Ewer were rarely used, and Spire was nevery used, there was still meaningful nuance for Arrow and Spear.
Giving Arrow to BLM, SAM or DRG, or Spear to BRD, etc. Felt more inpactful than a flat damage buff.

**Cheremia** · 05-31-2019 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Payadopa

I must have been dreaming then. I always use bole and ewer is awesome for MP using classes. I even keep an ewer in case a boss goes horribly wrong and I need to refresh my MP. These card changes are terrible.

I mean, you can. But i also had asts holding ewer for bad situations and see where that went. Not used at all. And them playing with 4 cards instead of 5(draw, redraw, royal road, hold, minor arcana). Or less in case of it being a level 50 raid.
So you effectively play with always 1 card less in case something bad may happen where an ewer honestly wouldn't do much difference. Healers usually CAN recover after dying and even res some people here and there and keep them alive. As long as the rest alive does mechanics. If everybody just dies, then it is more of an extended wipe most of the time, if 2 dps comfortably stay alive, both tanks are alive and only 1 healer, it usually works but if everybody fails, it doesn't

Also using an enhanced or aoe bole for a tankbuster is flat out a waste since you, yourself, have essential dignity. It heals more damage the less hp a tank has. And most tanks know how to hit cooldowns and not take more than half damage(if they only pop one cooldown for example) and your essential+ aspected benefic should just do the same job.
Mitigating damage IS nice and all, but if you or a sch can do it on demand and reliably, wasting card uptime for that.... never felt worth it for me at all.

also as Seraphor said, you can use spear and arrows. I give arrows to caster usually, even to smn. And spear to monks and especially bards. Just because. But bole/spire/ewer are still filler cards that make you think "heh nice i'm doing this, aren't i cool that i don't just use damage ups?" while nobody else really cares nor sees a difference honestly

**Boomsmash** · 05-31-2019 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mansion

Yeah but they give you tools you act on RNG.
Yes we had 6 cards but :
- You never used Spire outside of Royal Road
- You never used Bole
- you scarcely used Ewer for MP, otherwise it was royal road.
- Arrow was not a good thing for some jobs
---- All this submitted to RNG. Having a bole come right for a Tank Buster is more than rare. Same for Ewer when someone is lacking MP.

Now it's just DMG up, and you cycle through Seals for Divination full potency (although like a said, 6% every 3minutes is too low in my opinion, unless you can stack it with individual cards)
I agree, it's less "challenging" than current cards but I don't know if it is really that bad, especially if fights need more healing and you Draw more frequently.

Also I'm grateful we are finally getting rid of this Sleeve Draw Scenario :

So:
1) You never paid attention to the Tank and Melee DPS's TP bars, I've used Spire plenty as a straight play because DPS don't always watch the party's bars to Goad.
2) You never thought that anyone taking less damage was a good thing.
3) You never had any near-wipes that were saved with Lightspeed-heal and Swift-raise spam that left you running on empty, or needed to refill a fellow healer, BRD after Foe Requiem, or just RDM as they're raise-spamming.
4) You never took the time to learn which jobs it was bad for and avoid, or just drop it on yourself.

The card system is useable for both novice and expert. Potency of effects needs to be tweaked, Spire needs to be redone, maybe Arrow needs to affect GCD too (or why are MNK jazzed about a fourth level of Greased Lightning but hate Arrow? Both are going to make you faster). But your arguments mean you min-maxed yourself straight out of what makes the job engaging and fun, and should turn in your (now last remaining) AST card.

**ElZombo** · 05-31-2019 10:47 PM

Biggest disappointment of the expansion. Every Astro makes different decisions, who to give what buff to, whether to spread and save it for later, royal road for a buff, which buff to use, or use it immediately. Now its just a build and spend for extra damage, so boring.

Really not sure what healer to play now. I started as a WHM, but they're just too simple. I even leveled an Arcanist to 30 to try Scholar, and was right in my assumption that i wouldn't like the pet mechanics. I normally dont post on these forums, but i wanted to put my vote forward in HOPE they may just revert to the current system in Shadowbringers.

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