Thread: Astrologian 5.0 Discussion

this is just a small porportion and most of the community especially the main healers are noticing 10k threads of over exaggerating the state of healers. Trust SE, you will be fine and you'll thank them for it later. Let go of meta, let go of premonitions of what you think is right, they tested it it makes since and it looks wonderful. At least TRY it first. All these doom and gloom threads

Originally Posted by Cheremia

But the cards are the tiniest problemchange in my opinion since it's a tastething and we can't really talk about a TASTE thing without being able to actually TEST it. SInce looking is still different than playing yourself.

AST main here.

I don't need to taste dog poo to know that I don't want to eat it. They not only gutted the card system, they also gutted the class fantasy. The Ewer, whose waters replenish life? Yeah, that helps you kill things faster. The Bole, whose roots and branches provide shelter? That helps you kill things faster too. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition rewarding players for intelligent use of buffs and regens? Gone, and with it, AST's manipulation of time as part of their lore.

And the general defenses of the AST changes that people give make no sense to me:

"But Balance was OP!"

Balance was bad for the game, therefore every card should be Balance?

The proper response would be to nerf Balance or rework it. Make it a +Det buff or something. Change Expanded to let you give a 75%-potency buff twice instead of a 50%-potency buff to the entire party, and now it's no longer strictly better than everything else in 8-mans, and it also becomes usable in 4-mans. None of this requires nuking the card system from orbit, as they've done for 5.0.

"But the new card system is better!"

Current AST cards require making decisions quickly when you don't get Balance. Nu-AST cards can be thrown out at random with no real penalty. Throw a card on the wrong DPS type and oh noes, it's +3% damage instead of +6%, how terribad . Save seals properly and you get a whopping +3% damage on a 3-minute cooldown. Whoopdee-freakin'-doo.

There's no decision-making. No reacting to the state of the raid. You're just a Balance Bot now, and a brain-dead hamster can play the class because the skill ceiling has been obliterated. And given the new Trust system, where ASTs would have to be pilotable by the AI, maybe this was a deliberate design goal.

"But we'll totally need MOAR HEALZ in 5.0 content!"

After six years of tightly-scripted encounter design revolving around predictable damage spikes, there is no way Square is going to suddenly change to WoW-style constant incoming damage. Square seems intent on putting all the complexity into the DPS jobs, and making healing the role for people who want to catch up on their Netflix.

Since DPSers get all the shiny new toys every expansion, while healers get homogenized and dumbed down every expansion, I'm no longer going to heal. I'm going to switch to a DPS main. Probably DNC, because their buff system is more complex than Nu-AST, and they have an actual, honest-to-goodness DPS rotation that doesn't boil down to spamming Malefic until your eyeballs bleed. Queue times? Meh, that's what gathering and crafting are for. And those are more interesting than Nu-AST ever will be.

You're talking like i don't use Spears or arrows either.
I do, since i'm not going to waste my time fishing only for balances. I like spear and arrow.

But there is only so much a bole/spire/ewer can do. And those uses are really niche other than royal road/minor arcana them. I do also spire dps that go nuts on aoe pulls if i get no other cards on big pulls.

But that isn't a complex choice, that's me getting annoyed at the rng for not giving me a card that actually makes a big difference of anything?

But you're talking like you always can ewer a healer that died other than that one point where it happens and you just happen to have an ewer somewhere.

Also, lucid dreaming cooldown will be 60 seconds and stronger, so recovering from a death will be easier. (for whm it doesn't matter either way tbh)

The thing is, it's all rng and spear/arrow/balance are the best and ALL THE OTHER CARDS are minimal use only. Do you really want to hold on to a bole for a transition phase where the most damage goes out? I wouldn't. Does a spire help you in trials?
Bole? There's 2 healers in trials and chances are, you can shield them or the sch can shield. Bubble it, problem solved.

I also NEVER said that only all balances is good thing, don't get me wrong. I've been saying that people just scream over ALL of their cards being useful now, no matter what. In every situation. But that is just because balance is broken and buffs all damage so it outshines arrows/spear.

They could easily made the melee/ranged divide while ALSO giving all the cards different seals and ALSO different effects. So you get different effects and different seals.
Or give the different cards different effects while also randomizing the seals on each of them.


The card system is STILL just a taste thing. It's an opinion. That balance is and always WILL be broken is another.
That is a problem, but as long as balance exists, all other cards are a little useless in comparison other than the 3 classes that can use it well (brd/mnk and blm)

So the ACTUAL problem is that the cards are just the same. But Balance just has the best effect so they're all balance now. Take it out and make it direct hit/Crit/Speeeeeeeed
The card system itself is a taste thing


If it seems like i'm back pedaling, i'm not, i'm still the opinion that the system itself is fine, but may need some tweaks here and there, which needs to be tested first (divination cooldown is too long i think, could be shorter, or seal randomizing instead of it being set). I still think people are screaming about the wrong thing there.

I guess I'm not surprised by all the negativity in this thread. 5.0 AST is definitely no longer 4.0 AST that is for certain. Duration extentions from CO and TD, +potency, +AoE, +duration, def%^, speed%^, crit%^, MP regeneration, TP regeneration, Royal Road/Empty Road, Spread/Undraw Spread, ogcd ST damage (Lord), ogcd ST heal (Lady) are all gone. Wow!

Now look at that list. It's not only staggering that it was all taken away; it is equally staggering AST had it all in the first place. That is an insane amount of utility, and I didn't even mention it all. AST also has Lightspeed, Essential Dignity (unique ogcd heal), Sects, Synastry, and Sleeve Draw. You'll notice that I did not include Collective Unconscious, and that is because everything I just listed in this clause is what AST brought to the table that no other healer does. Even from the first list, there is a lot that is exclusive to AST.

I'm also shocked that the majority of the negativity is because of the change to the cards. The def%^, speed%^, crit%^, MP regeneration, TP regeneration doesn't even make up half of what AST lost, and of those five bonuses, two of them are undesirable and burned the majority of the time, while the other three are all just variations of what they ultimately do; Increase DMG. Yet, AST got to keep what was desired most. If I was a dev, I would feel like I just bought my daughter who loves ponies six of them, and then she got mad at me for it. Color me confused as eff.

I actually would agree about the cards if you weren't still essentially fishing for 1 of 3 desirables. AST is still basically looking for either 1 of 3 variations of cards when they draw. Before it was Balance, Spear, or Arrow. Now AST will be looking for 1 of 3 seals, but providing dmg up buffs while they do it. Even if you enjoyed having six different choices of buffs, your party didn't. Your tanks don't care about the Bole; they have defensive CDs and invul skills. Mages didn't care about the Ewer; they have MP regeneration skills and BRD. Nobody cared about the Spire. All they want is for you to increase their DMG output. They will be sad AST can no longer increase durations though. AST is still going to be meta though, and you all already know why.

Now the skill Divination is what I somewhat have an issue with, because there should be a difference in increase from 1 seal to 2. I believe this will get changed in the near future. In the WHM thread I said they suffered the least from loss of DPS skills, but that still entails suffering. AST didn't suffer at all, and the other two healers have been reduced to the same: one DoT, at least one AoE, and a filler. It is a bit of a disappointment that AST did not get any new offensive skill, especially after how well they did with Earthly Star in SB. But the updates to Malefic and Combust look absolutely wonderful.

As weird as this is to say, the biggest disappointment with AST for me, is out of all that utility they lost, next to none of it was given to WHM. Could've gave them speed, crit, mp refresh... They did get a damage reduction buff, so I guess that's something. But yeah, real head scratcher. Same with giving them Plenary Indulgence. Like what the actual eff?

Next to all of that I liked everything enough to give it another go. I'm not going to lie that they have simplified this job a bit. I know full well how good and engaging this job is to play right now. I truly do sympathize with the AST mains out there who must feel gutted from the losses. But I honestly believe the core concept of this job is still intact. I think this is the job that will surprisingly play to satisfaction, and some might even feel a bit relieved that they are no longer burdened with so much utility. We're still going to be able to buff the group while playing a RNG game with the card deck, and still keep others healed and contribute damage. Lowering Gravity to 45 is also godsend. I'm sure at least that is a welcome change we can all agree on.

AST grade: C+

Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm also shocked that the majority of the negativity is because of the change to the cards. The def%^, speed%^, crit%^, MP regeneration, TP regeneration doesn't even make up half of what AST lost, and of those five bonuses, two of them are undesirable and burned the majority of the time, while the other three are all just variations of what they ultimately do; Increase DMG. Yet, AST got to keep what was desired most. If I was a dev, I would feel like I just bought my daughter who loves ponies six of them, and then she got mad at me for it. Color me confused as eff.

Balance being heavily desired and ewer/spire being royal road fuel aren't things people liked. Those three cards needed a rework, but this way is crazy lazy. I don't want to be a the raid damage buff bot, and instead they not only doubled down on that role, they gutted every bit of complexity from the mechanic.

Originally Posted by Pomp

Balance being heavily desired and ewer/spire being royal road fuel aren't things people liked. Those three cards needed a rework, but this way is crazy lazy. I don't want to be a the raid damage buff bot, and instead they not only doubled down on that role, they gutted every bit of complexity from the mechanic.

Even if AST in general didn't like having to burn those cards and wanted them to be something different, I'll point back to your party caring about one thing and one thing only; increasing their damage. I hate to say it but you are the raid damage buff bot. You're just now realizing this? It's a big reason why I left the job in the dust after using it for a while after getting it to 70. It wasn't for any reason revolving around feeling like the job didn't play well. I strongly disliked the card mechanic because it gave the illusion of choice. 5.0 card mechanic doesn't hide behind this ruse and doesn't have as many layers of RNG to go through.

I also really haven't seen too many good suggestions about what to do with the other cards either. A popular suggestion was changing the sects so that they changed what the cards do such as one sect providing buffs to the group and the other sect using debuffs on the mob. Now AST can debuff too! It's gotten too far. Having a skilled one in your group is like having a Gameshark. It's not a case of bringing the other healer up either. AST had to be knocked down some pegs, and most of us knew it was coming too.