Are we satisfied with the state of combos?

[Shurrikhan]

If not, what are its present issues and how might we approach something more satisfying?

[Kalise]

Combo's are fine... I guess?

Like, they're not awful. But they're not particularly noteworthy, either in terms of fun or engagement.

Since, pretty much they're just 123 with increasing damage for each subsequent strike. The exception is Monk whom merely gets access to skills which have different effects as opposed to just getting increasing damage.

Meaning that when you get down to it, it's kind of like you're just spamming a single button for generic filler only you have to use 3 buttons instead of 1 and you also can't use certain skills mid-chain because they interrupt combos (Such as using a ranged attack, a PLD using Shield Bash, a DRG using Heavy Thrust, using an AoE skill etc)

As far as improvements go?

Well, reducing just how much potency is gained per step and instead focusing on accessing skills with alternate effects would go a long way. So that all 3 strikes in a combo feel good to use and not weighted towards the latter skills. An example is instead of WAR's Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Path being 160 > 200 > 280 it's more like 190 > 210 > 240. Where much of the benefit from the combo is from alternate effects, such as how Maim and SP give Gauge.

Outside of that... I don't know... Personally, my favourite combo system was the one from City of Heroes and the Dual Blades powerset. Which took the form of:

9 skills, 4 combos:

Nimble Slash - Low damage, very fast cooldown
Power Slice - Moderate damage, fast cooldown
Ablating Strike - Moderate damage, enemy defence down, fast cooldown
Typhoon's Edge - PBAoE moderate damage, slow cooldown
Blinding Feint - Moderate damage, self damage and accuracy up, slow cooldown
Vengeful Slice - Moderate damage, enemy knockdown, moderate cooldown
Sweeping Strike - Cone superior damage, moderate cooldown
One Thousand Cuts - Cone superior damage, slow cooldown

Combos where 3 skill combinations:

Weaken - Enemy accuracy down and defence down:

Nimble Slash > Ablating Strike > Typhoon's Edge

Empower - Self damage and accuracy up:

Nimble Slash > Ablating Strike > Blinding Feint

Attack Vitals - Cone DoT

Ablating Strike > Vengeful Slice > Sweeping Strike

Sweep - PBAoE knockdown

One Thousand Cuts > Power Slice > Typhoon's Edge

If I recall correctly, the combo effects also dealt damage to targets they hit too (Except for Empower obviously)

But the general gameplay was that every skill had a different CD, meaning what combo's you did depended on what skills were available as well as what effect you wanted. With downtime being you just using the lower CD skills as filler until you get a combo available again.

In the end, you had a nice flow to your combat, where you were constantly mixing up your attacks based on what was happening and what was coming back up (Especially when you'd got some CDR mods put into the longer CD skills so they would come back up a lot faster) as well as getting some nice feedback from actually landing the combo, via some impactful effects rather than "Just X more damage"

Whether or not it's feasible to take some elements of this design and incorporate it into XIV I don't know...

Possibly?

Like, if we take our standard 3 skill combo we can have the following options:

123
321
213
231
312
132

That could give us 6 different "Combos". With a system much like how Mudra work. (There's also more if you allow for repeat numbers... Like 121, 131, 112, 113 etc)

If you wanted to get crazy, you could even have each skill change depending on what combo's you're doing.

So for example on a Warrior: If you start off a combo with say... Maim, your Heavy Strike could become say Skull Sunder and Storm's Path become say, Fracture. Then after using the next skill in the sequence (Skull Sunder/Fracture) the remaining skill then becomes something else, like maybe after Skull Sunder, Storm's Path becomes Butcher's Block while after Fracture, Heavy Strike becomes Crushing Strike.

Which would allow for a plethora of skills, within the 3 button combo that we're used to. The only change required to set it up, would be to change the current "Combo" skills into having a base potency equal to the current combo starters (I.e. Maim/SP being 160 potency same as Heavy Strike)

With the ideal outcome being less focus on just 123 ad infinitum and more shifting what combo you do based on what you need at the time. Such as DoT application, buff upkeep, debuff application, healing, mitigation, conditional bonuses (I.e. "Deals more damage to targets above 80% life/below 20% life") etc.

[Shurrikhan]

Like, if we take our standard 3 skill combo we can have the following options:

123, 321, 213, 231, 312, & 132

I guess what I'd be most curious about, then, is how we define where a combo would end. Would it always just be by rule of three? Or is there some other condition baked into the system (and perhaps its individual skills) that allow for fewer or greater GCDs before resolving back to the pre-combo state?

Additionally, do you think there ought to be differences in name, icon, and/or animation to indicate the relative power of a pre-combo, mid-combo, and combo-ending variant of the same skill, i.e. 123 vs. 312 vs. 231?

[Kalise]

I guess what I'd be most curious about, then, is how we define where a combo would end. Would it always just be by rule of three? Or is there some other condition baked into the system (and perhaps its individual skills) that allow for fewer or greater GCDs before resolving back to the pre-combo state?

Well, 3 hit combo's seem to be the thing for SE. Given that only DRG utilizes more than that (I guess technically, SAM also has a combo that uses less with the 2 skill Yukikaze combo). It would also limit the possibilities to a more standard number that's easier to balance around rather than you know, having infinite possibilities that we have to memorize the arbitrary combinations that are picked...

Thus the most logical way to do things like DRG's 5 step combos or SAM's Yukikaze combo would be for them to utilize skills from outside of the 123 combo skills. I.e. DRG does some variant of the 3 step combo, then uses Wheeling Thrust/Fang and Claw as seperate skill(s). Or SAM having either a separate 1-2 combo for Yukikaze or having Yukikaze just be a stand alone skill (Or incorporated into a now 3 step combo?)

Then, if we stick to a rule of three, we can easily set up for making the combo's be clear by using the current shiny gold borders used to indicate combo actions. For example:

You use skill 1 and skills 2 and 3 will be lit up, showing that they can be combo'd.

Then you use skill 2 and only skill 3 remains lit up as that's the only progression available from the "1-2" combo.

Finally you use skill 3 and then you'd be back to the normal state.

Additionally, do you think there ought to be differences in name, icon, and/or animation to indicate the relative power of a pre-combo, mid-combo, and combo-ending variant of the same skill, i.e. 123 vs. 312 vs. 231?

Probably.

Not only would that be more intuitive - Since you can then also change some effects of skills within combos - But would also be more visually appealing, wherein you feel less like you're just spamming the same skills over and over again.

In addition, with different names and icons, it would also be possible to highlight them in the spellbook (Much like how you can find Machinists Heated versions of their combo skill or Red Mages Enchanted melee skills at the bottom of the page) so you can see what effect(s) they have and also look at what combo's access what skills.

So for example, using your reference to 123 vs 321 vs 231 on say, Warrior (What a surprise ):

Base Skills:
1 = Heavy Strike
2 = Crushing Strike
3 = Smash

123:

Heavy Strike > Maim > Storm's Path

312:

Smash > Fracture > Butcher's Block

231:

Crushing Strike > Skull Sunder > Storm's Eye

So, in your spellbook you'll learn Heavy Strike, Smash and Crushing Strike but at the bottom of your spellbook you'll have "This action cannot be put on your action bar" skills for the other skills but will have their tooltips and combos detailed.

The concern would be trying to make it clear how each combo progressed... Given that, in theory, each skill would have 4 different skills it would change into based on which combo is being used (123/132 + 321 + 213 + 231 + 312)

I suppose with Role Actions being addressed in ShB and rolled into standard skill progression, you could have a "Combo" page in your spellbook, which could show the combo's clearly and reference the base skill used.

I.e.

Heavy Strike > Maim > Storm's Path would be referred to as Heavy Strike > [Crushing Strike] Maim > [Smash] Storm's Path

[Kabooa]

No. I'd like at least one job where a modular combo system, like what Kalise mentioned, is the centerpiece of its execution.

Think Seigfried from Soulcalibur as he stance shifts, with about 3-4 options from each stance.

While the Monk has the system in place for it, it's ignored in favor of just FFF RRR FFF RRR alternating, except maybe on Demolish depending on skill speed.

[Lemuel81]

I never really thought combos were fun, but they never bothered me too much either.

[Brightamethyst]

Combos have always kind of annoyed me. They're neat in theory but in practice they just lock you into VERY strict and boring rotations. I'd rather see melees move to a more dynamic proc and priority based system like the ranged jobs have.

[Seraphor]

^ I think a simpler way, rather than detailing all the combo strings, would be to have the attacks generate stacks of an effect that modify them.
For example, lets say your WAR weaponskills all generate 1 stack of Rage.

Heavy Strike:
Deals damage with a potency of 100.
Additional effect: Upgrades to Fracture with 1 stack of Rage.
Fracture:
Deals damage with a potency of 140.
Additional effect: Upgrades to Storms Eye with 2 stacks of Rage.
Storms Eye:
Deals damage with a potency of 150. Consumes all Rage stacks.
Additional effect: Recovers HP equal to 20% of damage dealt.

[Kalise]

^ I think a simpler way, rather than detailing all the combo strings, would be to have the attacks generate stacks of an effect that modify them.
For example, lets say your WAR weaponskills all generate 1 stack of Rage.

That seems far more convoluted. Especially if trying to actually create 6 unique combo strings.

Since, then each skill would be generating 2 different stacks, which would create issues when progressing into the second step.

To say nothing about you know, needing to actually mention every single "Upgrade"

Like, as I mentioned above, given that each base skill will have 4 other skills it "Upgrades" into based on what other action(s) are used prior. Which would be messy af to put into the tooltip.

Since it'd look like

Heavy Strike:
Deals damage with a potency of 160
Additional Effect: Generates 1 stack of Rage
Additional Effect: Generates 1 stack of Fury
Additional Effect: Upgrades to Fracture with 1 stack of Anger
Additional Effect: Upgrades to Cleave with 1 stack of Temper
Additional Effect: Upgrades to Storm's Eye with 2 stacks of Malice
Additional Effect: Upgrades to Mercy Stroke with 2 stacks of Hatred

That does not at all sound simple. Especially not compared to being able to detail combo strings, like any Fighter game would.

It would also be possible to utilize the Combo page to detail Ninjutsu and Iaijutsu as well.

[Seraphor]

No... why would you need different stacks?
THAT would make it convoluted.
All three weaponskills give 1 stack of Rage, change at 1 stack of Rage, and change at and consume 2 stacks of Rage.
This would create the effect you described, where the same three weaponskills could be used to create nine different attacks, depending on whether theyre the first, second or third attacks in a combo.