Musings on DNC and meta comps in ShB

[Veis_Alveare]

I realize this might be a difficult topic to discuss within the rules of the OF but I'm going to do my best to color within the lines. If I'm not saying exact websites it's because of that.

As a raid community we like numbers, particularly big numbers. I understand that the dev team is looking at reducing the job synergies in order to open up alternate party compositions and I'm hugely thankful for that... but then there's DNC.

I'll preface the fact that I plan to level DNC first and raid on it in ShB, this is not meant to be a DNC hate thread in any way; aesthetically and thematically it's exactly what I want in a job based on what we've seen so far. That aside I don't see many potential realities in which DNC isn't mandatory for raid content.

The issue all comes back to numbers. People do pad runs now with single target balances, sunoptimal drg tethering and all kinds of catering to a single party member in order to chase their dream parse. You can look at records of any fight and see this sort of sacrifice to group damage in order to boost one member into the sky but it's always very identifiable because very few buffs (really just cards and Dragon Sight) can be focused to one player.

DNC is in a position to change this in a way - it's dps utility is inherently focused on its partner. This means there isn't a choice between boosting the group or a single person the way we can with current AST cards so it's harder to call someone out for a pad run - any run with a DNC in it is in a way a pad run for their partner to an extent.

Saber Dance alone is quite impressive and aligns well with the 60sec nature of many raid buffs. Combine this with changes to AST cards that seem to favor (or even necessitate) their use on single players and it seems like the perfect storm of focused dps buffs that can really skew the average dps of a given job. "Sure, that SAM held 10k but he had a DNC"...

The only way I can really see DNC not being a guaranteed meta spot is if it's personal dps is so low that it reduces clear times to a place that lowers group dps to account for it's buffs to a single player - basically only strong groups can afford to bring a DNC because it's dps contribution needs to be carried by the rest of the group. I don't think SE will do this but it's potencies on abilities we've seen thus far and the fact that it loses several GCDs to it's steps (which have a 1sec recast time instead of the .5 sec recast on mudras) makes me scared for its personal dps.

I understand that nothing is set in stone and that we'll get more info on the 29th. I also understand even the info on the 29th is subject to change before ShB goes live. I'm looking at this from the vantage point of someone who has felt very strongly that the meta needs to be shaken up because an unchanging group composition for most of an expansion leaves things feeling quite stale. I just hope we aren't trading the shackles of BRD and the crit meta for DNC and a focus on selfish dps having a DNC personal assistant.

[Lumadurin]

The stupid thing is that they've emphasizing single-target buffing yet there's still literally no way to tell how well your party is performing unless you run a parser, which is officially "not allowed".
Picking your partner is a complete shot in the dark unless you run third-party software.

That aside, it really all depends on how much DNC boosts things.
For all we know a Selfish DPS could do 1.3 damage, but DNC does 0.9. Compare this to a party of general DPS who all do 1.1 each. The numbers are the same, just distributed differently.

[MiruWest]

Given what all a DNC can do I can wholeheartedly say they will have to be the lowest DPS in the game. That being said I do think they will be mandatory for parse runs to chase those oranges.

What gets me is that SE said they want to do away with preconceived mandatory classes and lower job synergy, but then release DNC???

Anywho just spit balling here but I think the new meta comp will be something along the lines of GUN/PLD/SCH/AST/DNC/some other 3 not sure yet.

[Nominous]

When NIN was released, they expected it's personal DPS would be lower to compensate for Trick Attack (it was higher). When AST was released they under-tuned it because they thought card buffs would be so good that people wouldn't look at the other healers as positively (AST was looked at as barely viable). Point is, these Jobs aren't exactly easy to balance correctly in one go, and usually they get it wrong on launch.

I think this is going to be very similar to the AST situation, actually. I think DNC will be under-tuned to compensate for (what they expect to be) incredible support values. I think they will be proper bonkers, but I think that it won't necessarily outweigh having another party member that could offer more reasonable DPS and support, especially in prog. The baseline for how good DNC needs to be is basically where DRG is now, DPS and support-wise. And I doubt the DPS aspect will line up.

They'll almost absolutely be used for speedruns, but I don't think it'll be nearly as rigid as DRG/NIN/BRD where you have 3 whole slots almost locked because of their interplay/party synergy. At worst, you'll have one slot that's highly preferred to be DNC, but that slot is also where BRD and MCH compete. BRD being a pretty big staple in the game, MCH probably seeing a huge popularity boost. Not to mention, sometimes casters compete for that slot, and even melee. All of which might retain more inclusive, less selective party buffs, which I think will be more appealing overall.

All to say, we have to wait and see, but I think DNC is gonna have a tough time tbh.

[silentwindfr]

The stupid thing is that they've emphasizing single-target buffing yet there's still literally no way to tell how well your party is performing unless you run a parser, which is officially "not allowed".
Picking your partner is a complete shot in the dark unless you run third-party software.

That aside, it really all depends on how much DNC boosts things.
For all we know a Selfish DPS could do 1.3 damage, but DNC does 0.9. Compare this to a party of general DPS who all do 1.1 each. The numbers are the same, just distributed differently.

actually is true and false, we already know that a few jobs are here for only do massive dps, like blm and sam. for me i think the DNC will be the job that will support this sort of dps that have technically no buff and are only here for dish a tons of dps...
even mnk can become a monster, let see.... dnc with saber dance with a mnk as buffed allied... the damage that the monk will throws will not be small and i think that them goal.

right now the goal is to add buff over buff over buff... that why job like brd/drg/nin get place in raid while having far less potent dps than the high dps job... but we can't be sure without get the whole picture.
because it's important to remember that brd do loose the +2% crit on song, that the reduction of resistance is out too.... a lot of important buff will disappear, how it will be translate in the dps of the jobs that did loose some of this effect is something we don't know... maybe bard will get a far more potent dps.... who know.

Given what all a DNC can do I can wholeheartedly say they will have to be the lowest DPS in the game. That being said I do think they will be mandatory for parse runs to chase those oranges.

What gets me is that SE said they want to do away with preconceived mandatory classes and lower job synergy, but then release DNC???

Anywho just spit balling here but I think the new meta comp will be something along the lines of GUN/PLD/SCH/AST/DNC/some other 3 not sure yet.

for the DNC it will depend on which job you will choose as dance partner... saber dance add 30% of critical and dh.... what is cool but have a huge cd, some job will become monster with this buff, other less but still get strong.

it will depend of what the team have as dps, if they have a monk, samurai or black mage a dancer will become really strong for buff this one. the synergy between monk and dancer risk to be really high, since the dance partner can give ressource to the dnc allowing it to use better skill and dance.

then why the monk will be really good... because the monk will be the fastest attacking job of the game... means more attack = more ressource for the dnc...

all in all it will be like a group into the group. a duo that have for sole purpose to deal insane amount of dps... do it will be mandatory, not really actually. drg and nin still have potent buff and can be interesting as buffing jobs... but like i have said we lack the whole picture... all we can do is theorize on air since we have not the whole change that the job have get or the new skill....

[Zerathor]

Anywho just spit balling here but I think the new meta comp will be something along the lines of GUN/PLD/SCH/AST/DNC/some other 3 not sure yet.

Woah there, do you have any idea how hard warriors complain if they aren't hands down the best tank in the game as far as damage and general tanking? If war isn't the meta tank still, it'll only be for one patch.

[HyoMinPark]

actually is true and false, we already know that a few jobs are here for only do massive dps, like blm and sam.

Slight correction—BLM and SAM have high damage if they’re played properly. However, it’s fairly common to find players that do not play either of these jobs properly. Even still, players that don’t have access to third-party tools will still feed jobs they think are dealing high damage despite them being below the tanks in actuality.

That’s the point Lumadurin was making: there’s no way to actually know who is dealing what kind of damage in order to maximize a buff without turning to a tool that explicitly tells you. Just because a person is a BLM or a SAM doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re dealing the most damage and can maximize the buff’s potential.

[Crushnight]

My friends have been arguing who gets to be my partner in 5.0 XD and its all down to that crit DH buff, though while it is nice i would wait to see the full kit to see how much different buffs dnc can provide the more it offers the more likely it would be bottom on the pDPS totem poll, but since its a DPS i expect it to still remain above healers and tanks pDPS, so it has a good shot at farming/padding groups rather than clear/prog groups unless a fight is designed in a way for needing those buffs early on (because if they designed a fight where these buffs are mandatory that is bad fight design).

[Makeda]

The stupid thing is that they've emphasizing single-target buffing yet there's still literally no way to tell how well your party is performing unless you run a parser, which is officially "not allowed".
Picking your partner is a complete shot in the dark unless you run third-party software.

Well... on that parser thing... Kinda not worried that will be an issue in any statics that actually care about progression.

As for other statics... just running with a regular team enough will let you feel out who to work with.

And in 3-catgirl&aBunny runs? Well... the healer? Probably not... so it's kinda obvious who your partner choice is.

Not worried.

As for how much they boost things... I hope it's like real support classes from games like City of Heroes - 50% to 100% buff - double your ability.
BUT... I know it won't be... there's a reason statics in City of Heroes rapidly devolved to being all support, no tanks, healers, or DPS...

But I do hope it's so notable that people start realizing BRD was never really a support class... just a nod in the direction of a now long gone MMO playstyle.

[Kalise]

I feel they're going to have a lot of trouble with DNC damage output.

Especially since they wanted to reduce synergies that promoted specific job compositions.

Given that BLM and SAM exist as "Selfish DPS" that do higher pDPS than other jobs, it already suggests that DNC needs to be in a party with a BLM or SAM in order to function - If they balance their output around this (If not, then they'll be partied with a BLM or SAM to supercede their balanced output)

That is, unless the changes to other jobs rDPS boosts are significant enough to allow them to bring all jobs pDPS up to an equivalent level. So that DNC is the only one notably lower than everyone else but makes it up by buffing someone else.

However, I just can't see them doing something like that. In which case, it's likely that DNC will only be viable alongside a strong BLM/SAM player or if not, the meta will become simply playing a DNC alongside a strong BLM/SAM with the remaining 2 DPS being whatever 2 jobs would work best at facilitating said BLM/SAM or providing overall rDPS value.