Raid DPS Contribution is IMPORTANT

[Fyce]

I love that people think sch is chosen over whm because of chain alone. Chain could not exist and sch would still be better than whm

Interesting opinion. Too bad you choose not to share anything to support it.

[Crushnight]

I love that people think sch is chosen over whm because of chain alone. Chain could not exist and sch would still be better than whm

if leaks are true then theres an ability that would make sch the preferred offhealer/shield hlr which would then make whm/ast compete for a spot again and i think ast wins again, whm just has nothing to answer for ast cards/other buffs and that is the underlying problem whm needs a rdps buff on a decent level to make it desirable and i'm using that word specifically because all 3 will be viable, that i don't doubt, just not all 3 will be desirable anywhere near each other.

[raerae]

Interesting opinion. Too bad you choose not to share anything to support it.

I think it's pretty true. AST/SCH interact too well together with indom and earthly star, and it's always been a matter of AST or WHM + SCH, not WHM + SCH or AST. This was only untrue in one fight in all of SB and it really boiled down to the expansion being new and the world first teams playing what they were most comfortable with. I've firmly settled by now that SE really doesn't want Noct to be as good as or better than SCH, either.

The oGCD kits of SCH and AST together trivialize savage healing with the current encounter design which is a lot of downtime between instances of raid damage, they just have such a large amount of combined powerful cooldowns that make it to where you don't even really need to plan your healing out with your cohealer very much, the AST just finds where they want their first star if it needs to be a little late into the pull at all, then drops it more or less on CD and you have everything else to be used inbetween star usages.

Post-buffs AST is a billion times better in ultimates, too.

[Mansion]

if leaks are true then theres an ability that would make sch the preferred offhealer/shield hlr which would then make whm/ast compete for a spot again and i think ast wins again, whm just has nothing to answer for ast cards/other buffs and that is the underlying problem whm needs a rdps buff on a decent level to make it desirable and i'm using that word specifically because all 3 will be viable, that i don't doubt, just not all 3 will be desirable anywhere near each other.

If the leaks are true, AST has cards for around 6% individual DPS increase and a buff based on the number of different cards active that is max 6% too. (Plus access to both sects on an ability and a strong mono target ability that uses the other sect aspect. New AoE heals free of MP cost.
WHM has a 10 % defensive buff, that's it. The rest is pure healing (single target or party wide), a big nuke every 90seconds. There is still one unknown skill in its kit that seems tied to the lilies though.

IMO, WHM is not competitive at all, because it always boils down to DPS up rather than Defense up.

[Crushnight]

If the leaks are true, AST has cards for around 6% individual DPS increase and a buff based on the number of different cards active that is max 6% too. (Plus access to both sects on an ability and a strong mono target ability that uses the other sect aspect. New AoE heals free of MP cost.
WHM has a 10 % defensive buff, that's it. The rest is pure healing (single target or party wide), a big nuke every 90seconds. There is still one unknown skill in its kit that seems tied to the lilies though.

IMO, WHM is not competitive at all, because it always boils down to DPS up rather than Defense up.

Yea i agree there is nothing within the leaks that suggest that they actually looked at the hlr kits properly to determine why ast/sch was so preferred and why whm was left behind so much, I'd really like to know who said to the devs that the healer changes were good at their events because they are not from the info we have. This supposed balance is a joke.

I do want to reiterate i do not doubt all 3 hlrs will be viable but ast/sch just have way more going for them again.

[Aurelius2625]

Your job as a healer is to heal, slave. Get to casting that Medica II.

[raerae]

, a big nuke every 90seconds.

The funny thing about this is even by the standards of stone 4 the nuke is a DPS loss. It costs you 4 GCDs to use it since you need to heal 3 times to have it available and the nuke itself is also a GCD.
It'll be nice for pugging, but with how healing works atm it's pretty uncommon to need even 2 GCD heals in 90 seconds let alone 3 so the most realistic case for it is it'll be about DPS neutral, slight loss or slight gain which is really laughable to have over a 90 second span. Imagine 2 of those heals in that 90 second window was necessary, the potency gained would be like if you got an extra cast of stone in those 90 seconds. Sad.

[Fyce]

I think it's pretty true. AST/SCH interact too well together with indom and earthly star, and it's always been a matter of AST or WHM + SCH, not WHM + SCH or AST. This was only untrue in one fight in all of SB and it really boiled down to the expansion being new and the world first teams playing what they were most comfortable with. I've firmly settled by now that SE really doesn't want Noct to be as good as or better than SCH, either.

The oGCD kits of SCH and AST together trivialize savage healing with the current encounter design which is a lot of downtime between instances of raid damage, they just have such a large amount of combined powerful cooldowns that make it to where you don't even really need to plan your healing out with your cohealer very much, the AST just finds where they want their first star if it needs to be a little late into the pull at all, then drops it more or less on CD and you have everything else to be used inbetween star usages.

Post-buffs AST is a billion times better in ultimates, too.

I don't disagree, but Savage and Ultimates are only the tip of the iceberg. There is a reason why WHM is still the most played healer job in the game. So, saying that "SCH is chosen over WHM" is only relevant in a very finite context (that the person I answered to absolutly didn't provide. They provided literally nothing).
What SCH/AST provides is only really beneficial to a tiny minority of players. WHM is still very good in a lot of situations that are outside of niches.

Also, even in the context of Savage and Ultimates, WHM is absolutly not altering clear rates in a dramatic way that would justify excluding it. Jobs that are not optimal are absolutly not an issue whatsoever in this game. Which implies that being flexible should be more valuable than blindly following whatever meta. And unfortunatly, lots of player don't understand that, put their blinkers on and go straight without taking the time to think about the situation they're in and how relevant (or not) that meta is for them.

In short, people often dismiss WHM because what it provides "isn't needed". Except that in a lot of cases, it is definitly welcome. But these cases are dismissed as well, even if they represent the vast majority of how people are playing this game.

---

But, anyway, I won't hide that my previous post was a way to point the finger someone who played the "I'm going to speak in this thread but add nothing of value to it. But at least nobody will be able to argue against my arguments, since I have none!" card. Kudos to you for actually arguing in their place. They tried to pull a "I know stuff that you don't, but I'm not going to tell you! Look at how smart I am!" kind of post, and I wanted them to know that they didn't provide anything constructive for anyone.
So, glad that I got an actual proper answer. Sad it wasn't from the person that should've gave it.

[Crushnight]

snip snip

Will have to say there was only ever 2 times jobs have been unplayable in content in this game and they were 2.0 war and 3.0 ast these were both stupidly bad that war got a rework in 2.1 and ast received buffs throughout HW (side note i think due to these failures the devs are quicker to sort these jobs out than most others when issues arise), other than these 2 instances everything has been usable at any other point.

That said when you start looking at savage and ultimate you are looking at your comp more and the utilities each job brings and this is where whm usage falls off due to it not providing enough pDPS to make up for no rDPS, the other hlrs bring both on par pDPS and rDPS this is an issue, whm level of healing is also unnecessary and that is an issue, whm only provided a single target shield good for tankbusters not so much raidwide dmg which was an issue that ShB is seemingly fixing.

So far ShB is only sorting a single issue and its the least bad issue out of them, we will have to wait and see if the other 2 issues are addressed in any way but so far the information is saying nope which means for high levels of play whm is again bottom of the barrel, i like to stress again whm would be viable in all content but there is no way people should feel like they are weakening their group for playing the job they enjoy

[Mansion]

The funny thing about this is even by the standards of stone 4 the nuke is a DPS loss. It costs you 4 GCDs to use it since you need to heal 3 times to have it available and the nuke itself is also a GCD.
It'll be nice for pugging, but with how healing works atm it's pretty uncommon to need even 2 GCD heals in 90 seconds let alone 3 so the most realistic case for it is it'll be about DPS neutral, slight loss or slight gain which is really laughable to have over a 90 second span. Imagine 2 of those heals in that 90 second window was necessary, the potency gained would be like if you got an extra cast of stone in those 90 seconds. Sad.

I actually hope there is something in the kit like using Assize, Tetra or whatever will consume a black lily (and shorten the CD or boost potency) so that the black lilies are not only tied to that GCD instant heal (which is otherwise welcome in WHM's kit). I'm looking at that spell we know nothing about yet. If it's a DPS GCD that requires a black Lily, then it should be okay.

But "okay" is not enough to compete with AST and SCH, until proven otherwise.

snip

That's a fairly common question about what is the basis of balance, should it be high end or casual play? There are aguments in both sides, but I tend to say high end is the better option because if you have a nicely designed job for high end, there's no reason it makes it clunky to play in casual content.
Also, we have seen that another "casual" job struggles in High-end raid (Red Mage). The problem is different but it boils down to the same results : it does very well in casual, but needs a bit more in high end. Yet it leaves the sour taste that it was designed for a limited casual content, and that kind of shuts it out of optimal play in Savage. While all those savage optimal jobs just play as easily in casual content.

We'll agree that we are just fighting on small details because as you say, nothing is unplayable right now; white mages, machinists and red mages do clear savage raids. But players are asking for the little thing that would make it more comfortable in savage and that would not change anything in casual gameplay.

(Forgive me if I don't go too much into details because I wanted to make the answer sraightforward, but I can explain a little more if you need me to!)