why i quit before reaching endgame (feedback from a new player)

[Skivvy]

OK, let's talk about XI. I'll fetch my rose-tinted glasses.

They did, and they didn't force story in XI. It depends how you want to look at it.

XI made a point to make each expansion separate from any other expansion. So you didn't have to complete one story to go into the next. In that regard, XI's story wasn't "forced."

However, that being said, XI did force story completion. The main story had to be completed past the Shadowlord to open up Dynamis. The rest of the city stories were extra. Zilart had to be completed nearly to the end to open up Sky, its endgame content. CoP had to be completed to open up Limbus and Sea. Not to mention a certain part of it had to be completed to open up Dreamworld Dynamis. ToAU needed enough completion to reach Nyzul, more completion to do Salvage, and full completion (plus Assault rank) for Einherjar. WotG needed some slight progression to reach WoE, but had very little endgame content aside from that; making the story trivial for that expansion. Abyssea and the other 3 add-ons were all story driven, and somewhat forced progression. SoA had completion checkpoints to access Delve and Skirmish, but I feel they stopped caring about the story in this expansion. Rhapsodies even needs completion to a certain point to open up content.

XIV went a different path and made an overall connected story arc. Thus "forcing" the main story to be completed.

XI's case was actually a failure on many levels, imo. The main story probably should have been forced more, and had more incentive to help others do it. XI is extremely hard to get back into, and especially hard to get back into and finish up any story you missed.

XIV actually has incentives, and reasons to do story. So the people that actually enjoy that thing, have some help along the way. They've also done a lot to make the story, for the most part, soloable in many regards. Which is another area where it succeeds.

Regardless, forced or unforced, it doesn't negate that the story played a significant role in FFXI overall.

Anything that starts off mentioning "rose-tinted glasses" is bound to be great. I still sub to XI off and on (status: currently subbed), so it's not just nostalgia talking as your comment would imply.

But lets dive into XI! You are correct - the game does require you to do certain quests/missons/ranks up to a certain point to unlock the latest content!...but I already mentioned that in one of my other posts. You removed the rather vital part of my complaint - the 100% forced completion. This is where I take issue with XIV's MSQ. I feel like you're trying to contradict some point I never made.

I'm not asking for all content to simply be available as soon as you hit a certain level. I am hoping that they take a look at how they handle the MSQ and perhaps make it less forced when it comes to the full-completion.

As for XIV game content, if you truly feel there isn't a lot to do outside of the story, what exactly do you do once you've put in your few hours to complete the latest story patches?

[odintius]

As for XIV game content, if you truly feel there isn't a lot to do outside of the story, what exactly do you do once you've put in your few hours to complete the latest story patches?

For me I move on to another game or other mmo the reward structure for this game is to much pure vertical progression for my taste leaving me to care less about the gear even more. This expansion going to take my time and not rush it because after at least a week it be over like I did with stormblood and play wait game for patches you can complete after 1 day. I play story then move on getting ilvl ready is super easy anyways don't need to other with extremes\ Savage bc gear isn't worth it to me to care.

[Skivvy]

For me I move on to another game or other mmo the reward structure for this game is to much pure vertical progression for my taste leaving me to care less about the gear even more. This expansion going to take my time and not rush it because after at least a week it be over like I did with stormblood and play wait game for patches you can complete after 1 day. I play story then move on getting ilvl ready is super easy anyways don't need to other with extremes\ Savage bc gear isn't worth it to me to care.

Fair enough But I would bet SE hopes most players aren't like you as their game would suffer greatly and would fail rather quickly. :X

Compared to other games I play, I would also agree that XIV's endgame is rather...stale and and repetitious, and I also am not a fan of the vertical climb. My issue tends to lie with those claiming the story is the main chunk of XIV, it's just not true. Sure, MSQ has it's place, but it's just one small piece of the whole pie.

[TarynH]

Anything that starts off mentioning "rose-tinted glasses" is bound to be great. I still sub to XI off and on (status: currently subbed), so it's not just nostalgia talking as your comment would imply. You removed the rather vital part of my complaint - the 100% forced completion.

The rose-tinted glasses were for me. You can't remember FFXI "right" unless you wear them. =P

But to your point, you said "They didn't force full MSQ completion on you." And I gave you many places where they did. It's hard to compare the two, because they're different monsters. That's why I said it depends on how you look at it.

XI at initial release didn't even have the Shadow Lord fight, and there was no reason to even finish the story. However, when they added Dynamis, (basically the first endgame content) you needed full MSQ completion of the original content to access it. That would be the equivalent of needing to finish patch 2.0 MSQ to access Binding Coil or Crystal Tower. Which was the case. You didn't need 2.1 story for Tower, but you did need the 2.0 full story. Technically it was 100% completion of the base MSQ + 5-1 and 5-2 (added later) to access Dynamis.

When the endgame content for Zilart was added (Sky), you were required to go through the entire Rise of the Zilart story line to get to Sky. The only thing not required was the very last mission, which took place in Sky. They probably assumed people would finish it off. But here's where XI differed from XIV. There was no additional story added, other than a few CSs later when CoP's ending was combined with Zilart's. So it basically was all of 3.0 without the rest of 3.X. 95% completion of MSQ to access Sky.

When CoP was added, the endgame content of it was exactly like Zilart's. You had to complete all but the final mission to get access to the area (Sea), as well as Limbus. 95% completion of MSQ to access Sea/Limbus.

Around this time is when they decided to add content differently, and began separating things in patches. They actually started doing this during CoP, where they added 6-4 through 8-4 in patches.

ToAU to unlock Salvage, the first endgame content for it, you had to complete up to mission 17 of the MSQ. At initial release, the story only went to mission 8. They added 9-18 later, and then 19-25 before releasing Salvage in an even later patch. If you want to get technical, you had to complete the original ToAU MSQ to access Salvage. Since you had to have the first two patches of MSQ done. The rest of the story came in later patches. So again, 95% completion of original MSQ to access Salvage.

(I'll point out here that I was wrong about Einherjar. It really had no requirements other than level.)

WotG again, had no real "endgame" content, unless you count WoE. Nothing really seemed significant. SoA was so spread out that I find it hard to determine what really was "endgame" content. The entire expansion seemed like a last ditch effort to give players something to do; bringing with it an arbitrary ilvl annoyance factor. However, in both cases there were MSQ requirements.

Land Kings, HNMs, VNMS, ZNMs, BCNMs, etc. were considered endgame, but they're really more like FATEs, trials and hunts in XIV.

So pretending like FFXI isn't a "story driven" game, or didn't require a huge part of the MSQ to access major parts of endgame content, is quite naive. I personally find it hard to compare the two, as they are quite different. But I'm also not denying (hence this post and the other) that XI required participation in the MSQ to access things. Yes, maybe it wasn't "full MSQ" but it was either 95% of an expansion, or a large portion of the original release of each expansion.

However, where XIV differed overall, (and I pointed this out) they decided to do a larger continuous arcing story line that carried over into the new expansion. So therefore finishing the post stories became a requirement to continue through to the expansion stories. Maybe they'll switch things up when/if this story line ends, but it's not the worst thing, and the CSs can be skipped.

Is XIV perfect? Absolutely not. It's lacking major endgame content variety. You can either repeat an 8-man raid for gear, repeat a 24-man raid for gear, or the latest trial for gear. Or you can repeat a rather dull, slightly changing dungeon (HoH/PotD). Eureka (despite being FATEs) was vastly different, and felt a lot like XI's Abyssea (of all things); where you had to kill a certain amount of monsters to spawn a NM. So I enjoyed it, but I also hated aspects of it. The light grinds alone felt forced. I wish they'd just kept the crystal system from Anemos through the whole thing. Other than those things, the endgame content just isn't varied enough.

XI isn't perfect either. In fact, I talk frequently with a friend that plays/played both games with me. And I frequently say I would love to replay about 80% of XI but with XIV's mechanics. Duty Finder to help with MSQ fights. Faster streamlined traveling, faster gameplay overall, etc. etc. The list goes on. XI is very hard to get back into and catch up. XIV has a ton of catch up mechanics built in. XI is very slow. When you I go back to it, I sometimes wonder how I ever sat through things. (Probably because I felt invested in it.) Just changing jobs through the menu system, and equipping gear seems so annoying compared to XIV.

As for XIV game content, if you truly feel there isn't a lot to do outside of the story, what exactly do you do once you've put in your few hours to complete the latest story patches?

Basically I level everything at a leisurely pace. I like doing daily/weekly hunts, beast tribes. Crafting, and working on some of the achievements they've been adding (like the ones for crafting/gathering tools). Eureka took up a huge portion of my time in this expansion. And it's not like I don't do raids, but they do get tiring pretty quickly. 24-man are more fun than 8-man imo. Other than that, I play other games or invest time in other hobbies. I usually look forward to new MSQ, and Hildy quests. I honestly wish they'd add more side quest things like the Scholasticate quests. I feel I'm the only one sometimes that's disappointed the MSQ has been cut way back due to ARR backlash.

[SerLuke]

I feel I'm the only one sometimes that's disappointed the MSQ has been cut way back due to ARR backlash.

You aren't the only one, while I love the MSQ on patch day I do wish each one took longer than a couple hours to complete.

I really don't get why so many people are upset and think they need to leave snide remarks about someone's impression of the game. Yoshi has wanted feedback from players since he came onboard, specifically because people leaving without feedback won't let them improve.

I'm not being snide, I really think people should try other games instead of insisting the dev team change the structure of this game because some people can't get into it. There's a difference between improving the game and totally changing how it does story progression, you would upset a lot of people myself included if you change how this game does story progression.

[Halivel]

You aren't the only one, while I love the MSQ on patch day I do wish each one took longer than a couple hours to complete.

you know the fun (and sad at the same time) thing? Recent story patches are short... because we were the one who asked for this. Because ARR after-50 story was very long with its 100 quests to catch up if you do it on alt or as new player. That's why they made HW after-60 44 and SB after-70 40 quests. And I bet that if ShB 80-after will be like 70 quests (middle between ARR and HW), in 6.0 there will be people who will scream that it's too long to do.

[SerLuke]

you know the fun (and sad at the same time) thing? Recent story patches are short... because we were the one who asked for this. Because ARR after-50 story was very long with its 100 quests to catch up if you do it on alt or as new player. That's why they made HW after-60 44 and SB after-70 40 quests. And I bet that if ShB 80-after will be like 70 quests (middle between ARR and HW), in 6.0 there will be people who will scream that it's too long to do.

That is true yes, and thus a compromise has already been made, I can see trimming down some of post ARR before HW but that's about it, no need to cave to these demands(by a very vocal minority) like making the MSQ optional and what not.

[PyurBlue]

you know the fun (and sad at the same time) thing? Recent story patches are short... because we were the one who asked for this. Because ARR after-50 story was very long with its 100 quests to catch up if you do it on alt or as new player. That's why they made HW after-60 44 and SB after-70 40 quests. And I bet that if ShB 80-after will be like 70 quests (middle between ARR and HW), in 6.0 there will be people who will scream that it's too long to do.

This wouldn't be an issue if the MSQ wasn't required to play the rest of the game. There only needs to be a compromise because we're all forced to participate in the MSQ. If it was optional, it could be as long as it wanted without bothering the players that would rather play different parts of the game. It sounds to me that reduced MSQ requirements would not only bring about a better game for the less story inclined, but also for players that want more story content.

[Penthea]

This wouldn't be an issue if the MSQ wasn't required to play the rest of the game. There only needs to be a compromise because we're all forced to participate in the MSQ. If it was optional, it could be as long as it wanted without bothering the players that would rather play different parts of the game. It sounds to me that reduced MSQ requirements would not only bring about a better game for the less story inclined, but also for players that want more story content.

But the msq only has to be done ONCE. Unlike a lot of other mmos you don't need to make alts to try out new classes. You can do everything on one character.

You don't have to go through the msq over and over again every time you try out a new combat class. If you had to then fine I would see the point in changing it a lot because I can see how it could be tiresome to do it every time you play a new class. But this isn't the case.

All this fuss over something you only need to do once. It really puts into perspective how entitled people are when they demand to change the game in a huge way so that it becomes optional.

[Physic]

But the msq only has to be done ONCE. Unlike a lot of other mmos you don't need to make alts to try out new classes. You can do everything on one character.

You don't have to go through the msq over and over again every time you try out a new combat class. If you had to then fine I would see the point in changing it a lot because I can see how it could be tiresome to do it every time you play a new class. But this isn't the case.

All this fuss over something you only need to do once. It really puts into perspective how entitled people are when they demand to change the game in a huge way so that it becomes optional.

its not a huge change, they already have skip potions, they already have new game plus.

it also doesnt make sense to frontload all of the story, being that its only a one time thing. You have 100-200 hours of story versus 1000s of hours of game play, why is so much of it frontloaded?

Not to mention, it wasnt designed to be played this way. all cap material came out in bite sized blocks over the course of years. This was a 6 chapter epic spread out over 6 years of gameplay, not meant to be consumed in the first 150 hours of gameplay.

Completely failing to see my point: that when people are given a way to skip one thing they will keep asking for skips to more things. It will never be enough for some people.



I completely agree that a lot of ARR needs to be addressed, particularly the lvl 50 quests. But I am completely against making the msq into essentially side content. That's turning FFXIV into another game.

Yes, people will always ask for things, that doesnt mean you never consider what they are asking for, and evaluate the benefits. Kids ask for toys all the time, they also ask for food, or attention. Some times what toys they ask for tell you things about what the actually need/should have.

ARR isnt the only problem. HW works better simply because its a better, more engaging story, but stormblood is less so.


Also, the unlock mechanism doesnt have to be nothing at all. Content unlocking can be done by players going out and doing something/going on an adventure. Unlock 15-20 content by killing optional dungeon boss. Unlock 20-30 content by finding a treasure map in a dunfeon. Unlock 30-40 content by beating a dungeon within a time limit. Or just do MSQ.