"Tanks and Healers do too much Damage..."

[Kalise]

"... Which makes the DPS role feel less important"

I'm curious about statements such as this.

As far as I'm aware, Yoshida has made note that he feels Tanks and to a lesser extent Healers are doing "Too much damage"

So, I wonder, are they doing "Too much damage" and thus making DPS jobs feel less impactful?

Or is it the fact that many DPS jobs are balanced around buffing damage instead of dealing damage? Meaning that not only are they sacrificing pDPS in order to create higher tDPS, but they also buffing the damage that Tanks and Healers are doing.

Like, this occurs to me every time I enter Eureka and choose what job to play.

Since, for Eureka, there are a few things you want from your job (If you have all of them at level 70 and with the requisite 300+ ilevel and thus can choose):

1) Raises and self sustain - Not necessary, but very helpful.

2) Personal DPS - To be able to kill mobs yourself, making FATE farms faster.

3) Relative increases to Party DPS - So as to be able to more easily hit the required contribution to get Gold tier rewards.

But then you look through the list of jobs and it will really jump out at you just how many of them are focused around buffing the party (Or just anyone attacking the target) and thus will buff any Tanks/Healers.

So lets look at them:

Monk - Provides Brotherhood, which increases physical damage of the party - Including Tanks

Dragoon - Provides Battle Litany, increasing the crit chance of the party and thus damage output. Including Tanks and Healers.

Ninja - Provides Trick Attack, increasing the damage a target takes from all sources. Including Tanks and Healers. Can also apply Slashing Debuff to buff Paladin and Dark Knight.

Samurai - Selfish DPS. Can apply Slashing Debuff to buff Paladin and Dark Knight, but otherwise tends to be fine (But, as a result, is non-meta due to not enough pDPS to overcome other jobs tDPS)

Bard - Provides Foe Requiem, increasing the damage targets take from all sources. Including Tanks and Healers. Songs provide passive Crit chance to all party members. Including Tanks and Healers. Provides Battle Voice increasing Direct Hit chance of all party members. Including Tanks and Healers.

Machinist - Provides Hypercharge, increasing the damage targets take from all sources. Including Tanks and Healers.

Black Mage - Selfish DPS. Doesn't have any party buffs.

Summoner - Provides Devotion increasing the damage of all party members. Including Tanks and Healers. Also can provide Radiant Shield, increasing physical damage taken by targets. Including Tanks. Or Contagion increasing magical damage taken by targets. Including Healers and Paladin.

Red Mage - Provides Embolden increasing the physical damage of all party members. Including Tanks.

So out of all 9 DPS jobs, only 2 don't buff the party consistently.

Of the 7 jobs that buff party DPS, all of them will buff Tank damage outputs.

While only 5 will buff Healer damage outputs.

Thus, to me, the stand out thing is that if DPS are feeling less important because of how much damage Tanks and Healers are dishing out... Well, the first thing to do is to stop making all the DPS jobs buff Tank and Healer damage outputs!

Since, not only would that confer to them a pDPS increase themselves as compensation, but it would also mean that Tanks and Healers won't be getting the benefit from DPS boosts as frequently. Thus widening the gap between DPS roles and Tanks/Healers in terms of DPS output. (It also would make the 2 current "Selfish DPS" more enticing to pick as other jobs wouldn't be eclipsing them in tDPS thanks to buffs being crazy strong)

The second thing to consider, would be shifting the onus of party buffs away from DPS and towards Tanks/Healers instead. So that their tDPS output factors in how they boost the damage of DPS jobs, instead of the other way around where DPS jobs tDPS factors in how they boost the damage of Tanks/Healers...

Of course, I don't expect this line of thought. I mostly expect reductions in potencies for Tanks/Healers, reduction in offensive stat gains for Tanks/Healers and for DPS to continue to be focused around buffing Tanks/Healers damage by proxy (Which causes imbalances within the DPS role anyway because of how strong buffs are and especially stacking of CD's)

[NessaWyvern]

I think making it so the buffs from other party members don't affect healers and tanks, would be the best route to take. That way it doesn't interfere with solo-play of healers and tanks, so they keep the usual damage they do outside of parties. If Tank and healer damage gets nerfed overall, doing solo duties and killing mobs solo would be an even greater chore.

[Paladinleeds]

If Tank and healer damage gets nerfed overall, doing solo duties and killing mobs solo would be an even greater chore.

Nah, easy fix would be for solo duties to have the Warrior of Light buff, that says you're breaking limits the way only a WoL can... overworld mobs... Well rip D:

[ADVSS]

So what youre saying is....more dps checks, but this time only the dps wipe if they fail?
I think DRK and PLD should get a slashing debuff too, since WAR got half both their toolkits, but the debuffs benefit dps in solo as well as group play as an added bonus. Even as mentioned later, player skill and playstyle can affect output of damage both healers and tanks and dps if sub optimal, also its not like theyre forced to buff/debuff its just good party play, and rotation.
If dps are barely outputting over healers or tanks, its probably...the player?

[Kuurei]

Tanks and Healers do a ton of damage, no doubt.

But they kinda need to. Particularly during boss fights, where healing and active mitigation are rarely a necessity.

Damage being taken is relatively predictable, meaning Tanks normally pop CDs only when necessary and healers have on average a 70% uptime of DPSing during fights (Stone IV...Stone IV....Stone IV....are you hurt yet!?).

However, trying to tip the balance too far in the other direction creates the WoW problem, where if a healer's resource pool is too low or a tank's not generating their resource fast enough, you can easily die while trying to restore your resource. Damage is extremely constant and rapid in WoW, to the point that much of a Tank's active mitigation is baked into their offensive rotation, with a few additional tools that aren't. Healers are pretty much the opposite of ours (I played a Holy Priest for most of Legion and the beginning of BfA), where they have 30% DPS uptime, if that. Usually, I'd average it even lower.

[linay]

Part-wide buffs shouldn't matter as DPS also gets buffed. With or with no buff, tanks and healers should output less damage than DPS. And I believe they already do at max output, and if that's true, I'm guessing they're talking more about the below average players (like me) that can produce less dps than a healer/tank, not sure.

[Hugowulf]

Wait so you mentioned eureka, are you talking about that instance or the whole pve in the game?

[AxlStream]

Or, and hear me out here, DPS players need to get good. Tanks damage potential is way below DPS but is easily attainable, while half the DPS players here are eating glue and wondering why they barely do any more damage than during Heavensward. Just look at fflogs and compare Tanks and DPS in the top clears. That's what DPS should aspire to be instead of just "good enough".

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Tanks and Healers do a ton of damage, no doubt.

But they kinda need to. Particularly during boss fights, where healing and active mitigation are rarely a necessity.

Damage being taken is relatively predictable, meaning Tanks normally pop CDs only when necessary and healers have on average a 70% uptime of DPSing during fights (Stone IV...Stone IV....Stone IV....are you hurt yet!?).

However, trying to tip the balance too far in the other direction creates the WoW problem, where if a healer's resource pool is too low or a tank's not generating their resource fast enough, you can easily die while trying to restore your resource. Damage is extremely constant and rapid in WoW, to the point that much of a Tank's active mitigation is baked into their offensive rotation, with a few additional tools that aren't. Healers are pretty much the opposite of ours (I played a Holy Priest for most of Legion and the beginning of BfA), where they have 30% DPS uptime, if that. Usually, I'd average it even lower.

Or they could change encounter design to require more active tanking and healing.

[Vahlnir]

Or, and hear me out here, DPS players need to get good. Tanks damage potential is way below DPS but is easily attainable, while half the DPS players here are eating glue and wondering why they barely do any more damage than during Heavensward. Just look at fflogs and compare Tanks and DPS in the top clears. That's what DPS should aspire to be instead of just "good enough".

Though I probably wouldn't have been as...abrasive about it, there is indeed a number of dps players who simply don't care to improve. There is no mistaking that. I will take "good enough" over "good lord they're so bad" any day of the week though. Personally as a dps (and future Gunbreaker main) I try to do my absolute best. If I know my job and how it works inside and out I don't need something like FF Logs. WoW taught me a pretty important lesson years ago. If I focus strictly on my numbers (like watching WoW's addon called Recount) then I tend to perform worse. Since ditching that and switching my focus to my own personal skill level I improved immensely, and that carried over to FF XIV. I'm probably not a pro, but I'm confident in myself. If I know I'm doing everything right I don't need to worry about some numbers tracker.