Regarding Mentors in Mentor roulette, ''going offline'' than requeuing again

[Paladinleeds]

it's because of this why I feel anything like this occuring in mentor roulette (disconnect, leave, kick, vote abandon, etc) should lock you out of duty finder for the remainder of the timer left on the duty plus 30 minutes (or if it can't be scaled based on duty/time remaining, just a flat out 2.5 hour lockout). The idea is to make the penalty for leaving greater than the penalty for staying. And the reason I encompass all the ways, is to ensure mentors can't abuse things like dc kick to avoid the penalty. Yes, it will be abused by non-mentors who know that kicking a mentor will lock themn out for 2 and a half hours, but I feel that is the lesser of two evils here.

As for ex primals in the mentor roulette: Absolutely keep them in. I'd also argue for adding in Coils (except SCoB Savage, since there's a great story attached to Coils). Alexander and Omega normal modes are already in the roulette so no need to add Savage modes.

[Hash_Browns]

Ex trials should absolutely be in Mentor Roulette.
The mount, the crown, the achievements - maybe save for a title or two, should not have been.

I still don't agree that EX trials should be on the roulette, but I do agree that all the perks of being a mentor, besides having unlimited access to the NN shouldn't be there, or at the very least - the mount should be somewhere else, with the mentor option being a harder way (but more rewarding if you want to help people) way to obtain it.

So there ARE youtube videos and outright text walkthroughs available online. Granted. But asking someone for a runthrough of a fight in a game when you're playing that game isn't exactly lazy. Yes I would expect that request to be polite but if you're berating people for asking for help with a game in the game, I dunno.. maybe "mentor" isn't a title you deserve. Not everyone knows where or how to look for the guides and honestly some people don't really learn without doing. It's considerate to try and figure out a fight/dungeon before you drag randoms into it, but it's part of the game itself to learn the mechanics in game. Someone had to do it before the walkthroughs came out and just because the walkthroughs are there doesn't mean it's required reading.

"Hi, I've just unlocked this, any advice before we start?"
This is your chance to minimize headache and time wasted. If you refuse or wish to leave that is your prerogative, however youtube and walkthroughs shouldn't be compulsory.

Their is quite a difference between helping someone, and carrying them.

One of the things that are on a disconnect here is EX trials.
Mentors are meant to help new players get into the game.

If you go into the NN (at least on Siren anyways) what sprouts are looking for are things like basic controls, settings, how to do limit breaks, questions about when to heal, when to use cooldowns when tanking, how to get into crafting & basic ways to craft, etc. They aren't looking to be carried through EX trials that they stand no chance in, or anything like that.

People come here with the assumption that a mentor is there to be the end-all of raiders, and be able to carry the team of people who have no clue what they are doing through Niddhog EX BECAUSE THEY ARE A MENTOR AFTER ALL. If I step into a trial, and someone doesn't know something - I'm super down to give advice, but once again, I'm not going to carry them through the entire fight.

Their are several things broken about the mentor system, including what players expect a mentor to do. In truth, mentors should be considered a role (with no rewards) that helps NEW players get pushed in the right direction. Once you hit 50, you shouldn't need the NN, or mentors anymore.

[Krotoan]

Their is quite a difference between helping someone, and carrying them.

I agree, but you only mentioned telling someone the fight, not carrying them. If you give someone a synopsis of the fight and a couple wipes to learn it, that's not carrying if they're pulling their weight as best they can while learning.

One of the things that are on a disconnect here is EX trials.
Mentors are meant to help new players get into the game.

A direct quote from the introduction of the program:

Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers.

Quite open to interpretation (obviously since these threads keep popping up.) but new in my mind means people who haven't experienced the current content you're in. Everyone has to do an encounter for the first time eventually.

If you go into the NN (at least on Siren anyways) what sprouts are looking for are things like basic controls, settings, how to do limit breaks, questions about when to heal, when to use cooldowns when tanking, how to get into crafting & basic ways to craft, etc. They aren't looking to be carried through EX trials that they stand no chance in, or anything like that.

the NN on Sargatanas is ... different. It's pretty hostile and unhelpful in general.

People come here with the assumption that a mentor is there to be the end-all of raiders, and be able to carry the team of people who have no clue what they are doing through Niddhog EX BECAUSE THEY ARE A MENTOR AFTER ALL. If I step into a trial, and someone doesn't know something - I'm super down to give advice, but once again, I'm not going to carry them through the entire fight.

That goes back to what you feel carrying is. If someone is doing their best and contributing under their role (to the point nobody is picking up their slack) then I don't feel it's carrying, even if a few wipes ensue.

Their are several things broken about the mentor system, including what players expect a mentor to do. In truth, mentors should be considered a role (with no rewards) that helps NEW players get pushed in the right direction. Once you hit 50, you shouldn't need the NN, or mentors anymore.

A hard definition and a separation of the title from any desirable rewards is necessary. Agreed.
I'd still consider myself new to content I haven't done yet though. If I've never experienced the mechanic I need to be told about it's existence in some way, even if it's by eating it at least once. Yes most competent players will teach themselves, but having someone in there who's flagged to be the "ask me about.." dude or dudette is a good thing.

[Hash_Browns]

I feel I need to clarify, if a new player is asking questions & trying to do the fight, that is indeed not carrying. I should have put more detail in my response.

I do feel SE needs to clarify further what a mentor/new player is to them.

I believe I am a good example. I skipped out on Alexander content (currently at The Arm of the Father - skipped so me and friends could do it together), and some level 50 dungeons (honestly just didn't even know they existed). I, however am a mentor because the requirements are so low.

Mind you, I have finished the story completely, some EX trials, etc - but since I would be new to The Arm of the Father - should I be considered a new player in that regard?

Personally I believe it's a mentors job to teach new & returning players the basics of the game, but obviously these threads are going to keep popping up until SE gives at least some clarification. I also wouldn't consider mentors veteran players either, considering how easy it is to become a mentor.

[Krotoan]

I feel I need to clarify, if a new player is asking questions & trying to do the fight, that is indeed not carrying. I should have put more detail in my response.

I do feel SE needs to clarify further what a mentor/new player is to them.

I believe I am a good example. I skipped out on Alexander content (currently at The Arm of the Father - skipped so me and friends could do it together), and some level 50 dungeons (honestly just didn't even know they existed). I, however am a mentor because the requirements are so low.

Mind you, I have finished the story completely, some EX trials, etc - but since I would be new to The Arm of the Father - should I be considered a new player in that regard?

Personally I believe it's a mentors job to teach new & returning players the basics of the game, but obviously these threads are going to keep popping up until SE gives at least some clarification. I also wouldn't consider mentors veteran players either, considering how easy it is to become a mentor.

It is far to easy and also too much of a checklist rather than a Certification. It needs to have some sort of rating system in it.

I would consider you "new" if you were in an instance you'd never played before. Considering the game gives extra rewards because of the fact that people who haven't run the instance before are there, I think it's encouraging patience and understanding... or at least tolerance.

we agree though that the current mentor program is flawed and.. pretty useless. People with a true mentor mentality get lumped in with the sea of jerks who are just in it for the stuff.

[MrKusakabe]

You cant prove if someone disconnected intentionally. Perhaps they had a power outage, Comcast internet outage, etc. People should not get punished for that and since there is no way telling, SE has no fix for that.

There are patterns though.

In the first place, your requirement is to stay online. I find it weird that "power outages" or regular disconnects are supposed to be a thing - and let's be honest: In 99% of the case this is nonsense, just like people that always get dyslexia when you point out their absolutely horrible chat conversations. Not sure in what 3rd world country you live to have power failures... But then, I remember my vacation in Croatia with 2 power failures per evening...

Would you stick to your telephone company when you get interrupted calls every couple of minutes? We sure did not in the 60s, 70s, 80s. If you live in the very outback and use Dial-Up (not to mention the updates) or ISDN, fine then, but neither is a reason for disconnects as these forms of connecting as stable (or unstable) like anything else. If you run on a 1-bar WiFi strenght and all such stuff is on purpose, on your end. So please do not use this to screw over random people that wait ages for a particular dungeon. Should spend the subscription cost to find a better ISP or resort to turn-based/browser games then. Even satelite connections - although expensive, but if you wish to play MMORPGs in the Australian outback - are stable.

And if so, then do not play a multiplayer game - if you can't meet the one actual requirement for a realtime online game: Being online. (Sorry to put it bluntly.)

The patterns I mentioned: Leaving or "Disconecting" directly after a duty has been found. Yeah, magically disconnecting at 89:55 on the counter of a 90 minute dungeon several times a week is surely easy to detect. If you get screwed for not accepting queues thrice a day and get a lockout, why not expanding it to these roulettes?

Sincerely,

[Krotoan]

There are patterns though.

In the first place, your requirement is to stay online. I find it weird that "power outages" or regular disconnects are a thing - and let's be honest: In 99% of the case this is nonsense, just like people that always get dyslexia when you point out their absolutely terrible chat conversations.

Would you stick to your telephone company when you get interrupted calls every couple of minutes? We sure did not in the 60s, 70s, 80s. If you live in the very outback and use Dial-Up (not to mention the updates) or ISDN, fine then, but neither is a reason for disconnects. If you run on a 1-bar WiFi strenght and all such stuff is on purpose, on your end. So please do not use this to screw over random people that wait ages for a particular dungeon. Should spend the subscription to find a better ISP or resort to turn-based/browser games then. Even satelite connections - although expensive, but if you wish to play MMORPGs in the Australian outback - are stable.

And if so, then do not play a multiplayer game - if you can't meet the one actual requirement for a realtime online game: Being online. (Sorry to put it bluntly.)

The patterns I mentioned: Leaving or "Disconecting" directly after a duty has been found. Yeah, magically disconnecting at 89:55 minutes several times a week is surely easy to detect. If you get screwed for not accepting queues thrice a day and get a lockout, why not expanding it to these roulettes?

The problem is someone , somewhere is going to have an outage out of their control that will mimic this "pattern" and be summarily punished.

Would you like to finally get online after a week of crappy internet due to sunspots or cruddy weather (I work for an ISP, these are both very common causes of disconnects and are hard to predict and often continue for days) and finally remain logged on to find you've got some punishment debuff going so now you cant play the game you've been trying to play all week? A lot of places in the US have only 1 or two ISPs available to them, even if your internet is crappy sometimes it's all you got.

[Spratchet]

It's lazy to ask to be spoon-fed information, and what I mean by this is simply to request the entire fight.

Asking questions isn't lazy.
Expecting me to teach you a fight from start to finish because I am a mentor, however, is lazy.

I would like to clarify that when I said "spoon-fed" it was in reply to the person I was quoting, who was treating giving information as "spoon-feeding". I fail to see how teaching someone a fight is enabling laziness. No-one knows how fights work when they come out and very few people go through the trouble of bashing their heads against them to learn for themselves. Watching videos or reading guides is no different from you telling them how in the moment. I feel that far too many people think this is other people wasting their time which, if true, means you probably shouldn't be a mentor. You took on that role to sacrifice your time to help others. If you can't give it then don't do mentor roulette.

It's called an analogy, there's no difference between Seiryu EX and Thordan or Sephirot EX synced. If you don't expect it from current end-game fights you shouldn't expect it from older end-game fights.

I don't expect it from current end-game fights because you can't DF them at the beginning. New trials are only accessible from Raid / Party finder for a time. However, generally speaking, people do run learning parties for new content. People do not do that for old content. You can't compare new to old in that way.

[Hash_Browns]

I would like to clarify that when I said "spoon-fed" it was in reply to the person I was quoting, who was treating giving information as "spoon-feeding". I fail to see how teaching someone a fight is enabling laziness. No-one knows how fights work when they come out and very few people go through the trouble of bashing their heads against them to learn for themselves. Watching videos or reading guides is no different from you telling them how in the moment. I feel that far too many people think this is other people wasting their time which, if true, means you probably shouldn't be a mentor. You took on that role to sacrifice your time to help others. If you can't give it then don't do mentor roulette.

Ah, I had clarified above I don't think giving someone info as they try their best is carrying at all.
I should have clarified further in an earlier post.

As I have never done the mentor roulette, I can't say how things usually go down, or how often EXs end up as the duty - but I stand by thinking mentors should be there to help teach new players/returning players & new/returning players alone. I also think the rewards should either be moved, or obtainable somewhere else. Tying achievements & a mount to a roulette will always have players looking to obtain them as fast as possible.

[Spratchet]

Ah, I had clarified above I don't think giving someone info as they try their best is carrying at all.
I should have clarified further in an earlier post.

As I have never done the mentor roulette, I can't say how things usually go down, or how often EXs end up as the duty - but I stand by thinking mentors should be there to help teach new players/returning players & new/returning players alone. I also think the rewards should either be moved, or obtainable somewhere else. Tying achievements & a mount to a roulette will always have players looking to obtain them as fast as possible.

Ah. Well yes new players to a fight was implied I had thought. Still if someone wants a quick refresher i'm not adverse to running down the mechanics.