Why don't astro cards stack?

[Killersai]

Then educate them if they overwrite and you think they may be unaware of it being an issue. That’s also not hard to do.

The issue with your suggestion of rebalancing the cards to allow for double stacking would mean that one would have to nerf their potencies. A nerf like this would have to be handled very carefully, otherwise you risk breaking AST in the opposite direction—i.e., making it worthless and not wanted (this was the case when AST was first released in 3.0, and it suffered from that stigma for a while even after it was buffed to be made better).

As it stands now, there is no reason to break the job in the opposite direction just to deal with a mild annoyance (card overwriting) that can be rectified by educating and communication.



Unwillingness to communication and cooperate =/= bad design.



Two ASTs cannot stack their regens or their shields.

WHM + WHM = stack
WHM + AST = stack
Di AST + Di AST = no stack

i don't think you understand that no matter how many people i educate it will continue to happen, maybe not with the same person in a specific dungeon but it might happen in the next dungeon and it will continue to be an issue. you cannot educate everyone and you shouldn't have to and unless it is changed it will continue to happen especially in the lower levels. and if you don't think lower level content matters then think again because it does and it should as bad design can lead new players away nor does it mean that it isn't an issue. there's ways to rebalance stacking such that you're not nerfing a class on its own as i've stated before, you could stack DURATIONS or have buffs QUEUE on each other such that when one effect ends, the queue'd buff activates.

[HyoMinPark]

i don't think you understand that no matter how many people i educate it will continue to happen, maybe not with the same person in a specific dungeon but it might happen in the next dungeon and it will continue to be an issue. you cannot educate everyone and you shouldn't have to and unless it is changed it will continue to happen especially in the lower levels. and just because you don't think lower level content matters then think again because it does and it should as bad design can lead new players away.

I’ll just repeat what I said: unwillingness to cooperate by not overwriting card buffs does not mean that this is a bad/lazy design. There are myriads of other buffs and party resources that do not currently stack just like AST cards do not: BRD’s passive crit buffs, BRD’s Battle Voice, BRD’s Foe Requiem, DRG’s Battle Litany, NIN’s Trick Attack, SCH’s Chain Stratagem, PLD’s Divine Veil, WAR’s Shake it Off, MCH’s Hypercharge, SMN’s Devotion. Why should AST be the exception? It shouldn’t. That would be a balancing nightmare.

Lower level content doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things; balancing should not be around leveling dungeons, but level-capped content where optimization takes place (e.g., Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). Though it wasn’t me who said that, so perhaps pay more attention to who you’re responding to.

there's ways to rebalance stacking such that you're not nerfing a class on its own as i've stated before, you could stack DURATIONS or have buffs QUEUE on each other such that when one effect ends, the queue'd buff activates.

This is already possible—it’s called paying attention to your co-AST, watching their buffs, and timing your own. This can even be done without communication—I’ve done it multiple times in all sorts of 8-man content at the level 50, level 60, and level 70 level. It’s truly not that difficult.

Your suggested change is not needed.

[Killersai]

I’ll just repeat what I said: unwillingness to cooperate by not overwriting card buffs does not mean that this is a bad/lazy design.

Lower level content doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things; balancing should not be around leveling dungeons, but level-capped content where optimization takes place (e.g., Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). Though it wasn’t me who said that, so perhaps pay more attention to who you’re responding to.



This is already possible—it’s called paying attention to your co-AST, watching their buffs, and timing your own. This can even be done without communication—I’ve done it multiple times in all sorts of 8-man content at the level 50, level 60, and level 70 level. It’s truly not that difficult.

Your suggested change is not needed.

it is bad design because communication is necessary as a side effect of the design. i have no problem with communication. do you understand this? if communication was a direct and deliberate design choice then i would have no problem with it but communication is necessary here as a SIDE EFFECT of a poor design choice to not allow buffs to stack.

and yes i've done this before on my own. it's not hard to watch people's buffs. it's not difficult and i'm not stupid. the issues happen when i'm waiting for the other astro to use his buffs and after expecting him not to the next second, we end up doing it at the same time or if the other astro is unaware and casts his buffs halfway through mine. the issue is unavoidable. i cannot educate every single astro i queue with and i should not have to because of a POOR design choice. stop pretending like the solution is so simple. if you can only suggest things that are obvious then you are of no help. my suggested changes arent necessary you're right because this problem doesnt exist in high level content where people already communicate but that doesn't mean it would be unwelcome.

can you actually suggest something useful?

[Veis_Alveare]

can you actually suggest something useful?

You moving on from this pointless thing.

[Killersai]

You moving on from this pointless thing.

funny how my response to you above still applies here because you've not said anything new, different or helpful.

[HyoMinPark]

it is bad design because communication is necessary as a side effect of the design. i have no problem with communication. do you understand this? if communication was a direct and deliberate design choice then i would have no problem with it but communication is necessary here as a SIDE EFFECT of a poor design choice to not allow buffs to stack.

Allowing buffs to stack would create balancing nightmares that would result in jobs like WHM, SAM, and BLM (i.e., jobs that do not offer party buffs/utility) dying a slow, painful death as they are ousted from optimized settings. This already happens with two of them (WHM, SAM); BLM has just now managed to make it back into some of the top speedkills THIS tier because the developers finally allowed it to do enough damage to make up for its lack of utility—they’ve never been good about balancing utility jobs against “selfish” jobs, and it has shown for quite some time now. Do you understand this? Because I don’t think that you do.

That said, communication isn’t necessarily needed to avoid overwriting. Paying attention is—but that’s necessary to complete content, anyways.

and yes i've done this before on my own. it's not hard to watch people's buffs. it's not difficult and i'm not stupid. the issues happen when i'm waiting for the other astro to use his buffs and after expecting him not to the next second, we end up doing it at the same time or if the other astro is unaware and casts his buffs halfway through mine. the issue is unavoidable.

This happens to everyone at some point or another. It’s happened to me as well—I’ve been overwritten and I’ve done the overwriting. Generally what happens is the AST that made the blunder apologizes, and people move on. Overwriting cards isn’t nearly as big of a deal as you’re making it out to be because the content that this usually occurs in does not matter when it comes to balancing. Balancing only needs to be done in high-end settings; not in leveling dungeons.

The fact that the developers already don’t do this is why we have balancing problems now—see BRD/MCH and the piercing debate. Why has BRD/DRG or MCH/DRG taken up two meta slots since Creator? Because the developers don’t understand the way optimized players work; they don’t understand that BRD/MCH will always want a DRG for their piercing debuff because that is 5% of their damage (much like how optimized groups will want AST for that +5% AOE Balance over a WHM that offers then nothing). They don’t balance around piercing when they balance BRD and MCH against one another, and this is why the physical ranged have always ended up better than the casters (particularly BRD—this is an even larger issue with it because they don’t consider how critical hit-enhancing buffs interact with its Repertoire mechanic).

I don’t think you understand any of this, if I’m being honest; and that’s why you don’t understand why people are disagreeing with your suggestions.

i cannot educate every single astro i queue with and i should not have to because of a POOR design choice. stop pretending like the solution is so simple. if you can only suggest things that are obvious then you are of no help. my suggested changes arent necessary you're right because this problem doesnt exist in high level content where people already communicate but that doesn't mean it would be unwelcome.

Unwillingness to communicate, educate, or cooperate does not equate bad design. Stacking cards and allowing other buffs to stack IS bad design because now the jobs that don’t offer buffs—or who offer weak buffs—will suffer even more. Because players that want to min-max will take the jobs where they can stack buffs. They already do this without the stacking.

The solution is simple. This is a non-issue for the majority of players. If you can only plug your ears against those telling you that your solution would cause issues of its own, then we are no longer having any sort of meaningful discussion.

can you actually suggest something useful?

Sure. I suggest that cards (and other buffs) remain as is—they don’t need to stack.


EDIT because I saw an edit:

Edit due to daily post limit:


No they do.
Shields don’t stack, but all regens do stack. Play dual Diurnal AST and you’ll see the two sets of Helios and two Benefics on your tank.

It's a shield thing, not a dual AST thing.

Diurnal AST HoTs do not stack the same way WHM HoTs do. They never have. That's why you don't see two ASTs both in Diurnal Sect for things - one is always Diurnal and the other is always Nocturnal. And that's not because of a "shields are needed" thing either (shields aren't needed for anything other than high-tier Savage and Ultimate); it's because AST regens do not stack with one another. CU’s HoT also does not stack if you have two ASTs. None of their buffs stack, except for maybe Synastry (and I wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t).

I literally just tested this with a friend—we were both Diurnal AST in a party and our regens (both Aspected Helios and Aspected Benefic) overwrote one another’s. They do not stack.

[Veis_Alveare]

i don't think you understand that no matter how many people i educate it will continue to happen, maybe not with the same person in a specific dungeon but it might happen in the next dungeon and it will continue to be an issue. you cannot educate everyone and you shouldn't have to and unless it is changed it will continue to happen especially in the lower levels. and if you don't think lower level content matters then think again because it does and it should as bad design can lead new players away nor does it mean that it isn't an issue. there's ways to rebalance stacking such that you're not nerfing a class on its own as i've stated before, you could stack DURATIONS or have buffs QUEUE on each other such that when one effect ends, the queue'd buff activates.

But what you're missing is that it doesn't matter.

Most of the people you meet in random Trial roulettes or whatever are doing so little damage that losing the 5% buff from your spread balance literally is nothing to the run.

Either talk to people or don't but asking for a change that would effect high end raiding for the sake of your feelings in casual content is entitled and shortsighted. We don't balance around fluffing trial roulette in a game that has content like Ultimate, I'm sorry if that upsets you then pick a new job.

[Killersai]

But what you're missing is that it doesn't matter.

Most of the people you meet in random Trial roulettes or whatever are doing so little damage that losing the 5% buff from your spread balance literally is nothing to the run.

Either talk to people or don't but asking for a change that would effect high end raiding for the sake of your feelings in casual content is entitled and shortsighted. We don't balance around fluffing trial roulette in a game that has content like Ultimate, I'm sorry if that upsets you then pick a new job.

i'm not upset because you don't think the content that is impacted by this issue matters. what's sad is how complacent with mediocrity you are. people like you are the reason devs can be lazy and not find solutions that don't harm other forms of content regardless of how unimportant you think they are.

[ForteNightshade]

i'm not upset because you don't think the content that is impacted by this issue matters. what's sad is how complacent with mediocrity you are. people like you are the reason devs can be lazy and not find solutions that don't harm other forms of content regardless of how unimportant you think they are.

Except they already have a solution. Communicate with your co-healers. There isn't any other option that wouldn't lead to a severely overpowered duo. If cards stack, you now have 10% balance. If they extend the duration, you could theoretically have an endless stream of AoE Balance. Either scenario will result in double Astro being meta. It isn't laziness for them to simply let cards overwrite each other. There is neither a better alternative nor does it matter in the content where this happens. If you have another Astro who refuses to work with you, time your own cards to overwrite theirs or don't worry about it. When it comes to more difficult content like EX Primals or Savage. If you aren't communicating, you probably aren't clearing. Normal mode? It isn't a big deal.