AST change

[Djinnrb]

This is hard for me because I dont main AST. I play it occasionally but not enough to be an expert. But my thoughts on some of Yoshi-P's excuses as to why they didnt add another healer is because they are having a hard time finding another unique playstyle. I saw that their reason to add another tank is to have 2 MT and 2 OT. I think this could apply to healers as well by having 2 MH and 2 OH. The two MH would be Scholar and Whitemage. I think AST is a very good class and I enjoy it very much. Here is my idea to take AST out of SCH and WHM's shadow and make it its very own OH.

First of all we get rid of the stances. Instead we turn them into CD's. Let me show you some examples.

Diurnal Sect becomes an ability that lasts 30 seconds that empowers ALL of their heals not just Aspected. Gives them a Regen effect of 140 potency for 21s. If the target already has Regen on them, the Regen will stack but for half the duration but 250 potency(making it a more powerful Regen but much sorter).

So basically AST's are no longer in the WHM's shadow when they use that ability and in fact it enhances the WHM because if the target already has Regen it puts another stack of Regen but a more powerful one at half the time.

With that in mind the AOE one would have a Potency of 40 for 30 seconds but the stacked version would be 80 potency for 15 seconds.

This would allow AST's to strategically use their Diurnal Sect when partnered with a WHM for amazing effects or if they are with a SCH they could get the stacked effect but they would have to put both regens instead of just 1.

_____________________________________________________________

Nocturnal Sect will also be an ability that lasts for 30 seconds like the change above. It will have a similar effect but with shields. The shield will stack with SCH or its own if still on the target. The only difference is while there are two stacks of shields on the target they take 20% less damage from all sources. This may seem powerful but remember this buff only lasts for 30 seconds and Nocturnal is all about mitigation where as Diurnal is all about speedy HoTs

_____________________________________________________________

Now with that in mind I want to repeat that this change would require that the Aspected spells be changed to be the AST's own spells. This is where people can get creative and I would love to hear others suggestions.

Maybe when you use Aspected benefic it casts the same card buff you last used, onto the newly healed player.

Maybe Aspected benefic causes the target to move faster but it has a damage aoe that slows and deals damage to all targets near the target you healed. Sort of like a Gravity spell.

Maybe you can make Aspected Helios a targeted ground aoe heal so you can cast it on the ground and it does two or 3 heals. First heal being instant while creating a Halo effect on the ground and others who are outside of it can run inside to get the remaining second and 3rd heal while every time the heal goes off any enemy inside will also receive damage.

These are all ideas off the top of my head as these abilities will most likely be the main ones that would have to change with my sect changes.

__________________________________________________________________

I appreciate you all reading this I want you to know I am not trying to ruin the AST class so please keep the flaming down to a minimum. I felt that Yoshi-P put himself in a corner by the way he designed the class and if we can make AST its own kind of healer instead of a shadow of SCH and WHM then it would open the door to them making a 4th off healer.


TLDR: Changed AST from a shadow of SCH and WHM to being its own healer so Yoshi-P has an easier time balancing the healers to make room for a 4th healer.

Thank you again and I hope to hear some constructive feedback and not just flaming.

[Veis_Alveare]

I'm not interested in a main healer/off healer dichotomy and it would make jobs unbalanced for other content, particularly dungeons.

A lot of the things you're suggesting are grossly overpowered. A 30 second 20% mitigation is unheard of and would trivialize so much in high end content particularly.

Sorry but this is just a big no from me all around. I understand that you're inspired by how they're handling tanks but at the end of the day healing isn't tanking and needs to be handled differently.

[Djinnrb]

I'm not interested in a main healer/off healer dichotomy and it would make jobs unbalanced for other content, particularly dungeons.

A lot of the things you're suggesting are grossly overpowered. A 30 second 20% mitigation is unheard of and would trivialize so much in high end content particularly.

Sorry but this is just a big no from me all around. I understand that you're inspired by how they're handling tanks but at the end of the day healing isn't tanking and needs to be handled differently.

No no no I completely understand. I wouldn't dream in a million years that they would use the numbers I put there. I was just putting something there as an example to showcase how the ability will work. To defend myself just a little bit though when I say Off heals I don't mean a healer that cant solo heal something. I mean off heals as a job that can do other stuff besides just healing such as debuffs(gravity), buffs(cards), enhance(sect abilities). I get where you're coming from though and I hope maybe my further explanation helped change your mind a little bit.

[HyoMinPark]

This is hard for me because I dont main AST. I play it occasionally but not enough to be an expert. But my thoughts on some of Yoshi-P's excuses as to why they didnt add another healer is because they are having a hard time finding another unique playstyle. I saw that their reason to add another tank is to have 2 MT and 2 OT. I think this could apply to healers as well by having 2 MH and 2 OH. The two MH would be Scholar and Whitemage. I think AST is a very good class and I enjoy it very much. Here is my idea to take AST out of SCH and WHM's shadow and make it its very own OH.

“Main healer” and “Off healer” died off in HW, and I’d rather not see it return.

I’m a far bigger fan of healers sharing the healing responsibilities, not one being a main healer while the other just does DPS all the time.

Diurnal Sect becomes an ability that lasts 30 seconds that empowers ALL of their heals not just Aspected. Gives them a Regen effect of 140 potency for 21s. If the target already has Regen on them, the Regen will stack but for half the duration but 250 potency(making it a more powerful Regen but much sorter).

So basically AST's are no longer in the WHM's shadow when they use that ability and in fact it enhances the WHM because if the target already has Regen it puts another stack of Regen but a more powerful one at half the time.

With that in mind the AOE one would have a Potency of 40 for 30 seconds but the stacked version would be 80 potency for 15 seconds.

This would allow AST's to strategically use their Diurnal Sect when partnered with a WHM for amazing effects or if they are with a SCH they could get the stacked effect but they would have to put both regens instead of just 1.

AST isn’t in WHM’s shadow. It’s the other way around—WHM is in AST’s shadow and has been since Creator; because AST can do everything a WHM can, and it provides utility (which WHM cannot). Empowering AST’s regens would serve to make WHM even more unwanted in optimized groups, and it would honestly serve little purpose, as their healing is already fairly strong currently in Diurnal Sect (healing in general is overpowered in this game).

WHM is generally considered the “raw, pure healer”, and the devs spout that its “burst healing” is its utility; but there’s not enough outgoing damage in even the hardest fights to warrant the amount of burst healing that they currently provide. If a fight does 1 million damage, you only need to heal 1 million damage; WHM may be able to heal 2 million or even 10 million damage, but it’s all wasted after that first million is satisfied.

Nocturnal Sect will also be an ability that lasts for 30 seconds like the change above. It will have a similar effect but with shields. The shield will stack with SCH or its own if still on the target. The only difference is while there are two stacks of shields on the target they take 20% less damage from all sources. This may seem powerful but remember this buff only lasts for 30 seconds and Nocturnal is all about mitigation where as Diurnal is all about speedy HoTs.

Between a SCH’s Deployed Adlo and an AST being able to mitigate 20% just about every other raidwide AOE, what would be the point in bringing WHM or any other healer? This suggestion breaks AST even further, and just makes it more meta than it currently is.

You’d have to give this a seriously long cooldown for it to not be completely broken—it’s already overpowered even if it did have a cooldown similar to Deployment Tactics, because now SCH/AST can plan to alternate shielding for several raidwide AOEs and reduce the need for more healing...which would defeat this idea of a “main healer”.

Maybe when you use Aspected benefic it casts the same card buff you last used, onto the newly healed player.

This would also further hurt WHM and/or a new 4th healer provided the 4th healer doesn’t have an answer to Balance. AST is so strong because of its cards, Balance in particular—it doesn’t really need them empowered further.

Maybe Aspected benefic causes the target to move faster but it has a damage aoe that slows and deals damage to all targets near the target you healed. Sort of like a Gravity spell.

In higher end content, the CC wouldn’t be particularly useful, as most bosses are immune to slows. Personally, I don’t see the need for increased run speed, but that’s me. I tend to stand still in fights and only move for mechanics/if I have to.

Maybe you can make Aspected Helios a targeted ground aoe heal so you can cast it on the ground and it does two or 3 heals. First heal being instant while creating a Halo effect on the ground and others who are outside of it can run inside to get the remaining second and 3rd heal while every time the heal goes off any enemy inside will also receive damage.

I’ll repeat what I said before: giving AST more healing serves no real purpose unless content is changed to balance it out—i.e., things need to hit harder a lot more frequently than they do now. Right now, there just simply isn’t enough damage to warrant massive amounts of healing that HoTs can’t cover. Even in the hardest fights.
I personally don’t count “White Hole”/Cleansing Strike/“Reduced to 1 HP” type mechanics as decent healing mechanics; but that could be because the devs went a little nuts with them this expansion, and they result in more overheal usually than they should.

That said, AST already has an ability like this: Earthly Star. And it is ridiculously strong—750 potency AOE heal under Giant Dominance every 60 seconds that blows anything WHM can do out of the water. And it can be pre-planned and timed to blow up immediately after a raidwide, removing the need to cast GCD heals.

No no no I completely understand. I wouldn't dream in a million years that they would use the numbers I put there. I was just putting something there as an example to showcase how the ability will work. To defend myself just a little bit though when I say Off heals I don't mean a healer that cant solo heal something. I mean off heals as a job that can do other stuff besides just healing such as debuffs(gravity), buffs(cards), enhance(sect abilities). I get where you're coming from though and I hope maybe my further explanation helped change your mind a little bit.

AST and SCH both already do both of these things: AST provides card buffs (and ways to manipulate said cards, either by spreading them to an entire party, increasing their potency, or by extending their duration) and SCH provides Chain Stratagem/Fey Wind. Both of them have extremely powerful heals: Indom is ridiculously strong and SCH’s are adored for their Deployed Crit Adlos; and AST has both Earthly Star and Collective Unconscious, the latter of which is the strongest regen in the game.

The only one that doesn’t have a type of utility is WHM, and that’s why it suffers. It only has raw healing, but the amount of raw healing it brings simply isn’t needed (except perhaps outside of prog—WHM is used a lot in Ultimate prog because of its healing and AST has MP problems...however, progging an Ultimate on AST isn’t impossible and very much doable; WHM is simply “safer”).

[Seraphor]

To be honest, I think AST works too well as it is.

WHM is the job with no identity, I'd rather they changed WHM to that it was no longer so similar to AST, regardless of which one technically came first.

[Mansion]

AST is in a very good spot since Creator as said HyoMinPArk and even better since 4.3
It could do with a bit of QoL tweaks but it's virtually the best healer in terms of healing output, raid buff and decent personal DPS.
Yet, I agree that it could be good to have some re-thinking of sects- as shielding is not so efficient unless a fight requires it. That's just what I'm looking for in 5.0. The rest is almost already perfect.

[Seraphor]

Yet, I agree that it could be good to have some re-thinking of sects- as shielding is not so efficient unless a fight requires it. That's just what I'm looking for in 5.0. The rest is almost already perfect.

Add bonus effects to Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation.
Restores the potency of any partially spent shields in addition to extending their duration.

[Mansion]

Add bonus effects to Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation.
Restores the potency of any partially spent shields in addition to extending their duration.

It could make it, but I'm not sure it would be worth it and you can already "cheese" a powerful shield for a given damage with Largesse and Mantra/Nature's Minne. I think shielding has a really narrow use, so it's not worth it to balance it.

In all regular gameplay and most of Savage, mitigation (Addle and this kind of things, or HP% value shields like TBN, Benison) is just enough, regens and off-GCD will do the rest. You only need shielding (Aspected helios and Adlo) in niche situations like Ion Efflux spam or Morn Afah.

[Gemina]

AST doesn't need more of anything. What it does need is an identity of its own. It basically stole WHMs identity and added a card gimmick to it. Both of those jobs as far as their heals go basically play identically to each other and Yoshi has came out and said that healing has been a problem since AST's introduction into the game.

Healers in general need their identity back, because all they are right now is a green DPS. The focus is to heal as little as possible so you can focus on adding damage. While this is not something I have a problem with per se, my issue is the amount of downtime they have that allows for their DPS time to be around 90% of the encounter. Game mechanics focus too much on you fail you die, or become so weak as we gear up that they can be outright ignored. There is no middle ground and it is a huge problem.

It has been mentioned that healing basically comes in two forms: barriers and direct heals. You can toss HoTs and ogcds in there, but these healing methods are used to sustain DPS uptime, so I personally do not include them. Barriers and Direct heals are on the GCD. This is where I get stumped because I don't really know another way a healer that can use GCDs that are not barrier or direct heals. It can't really be HoTs because this type of GCD won't save a player who is at critical damage if an unavoidable comes raining down that finishes them off. Timed/explosive heals won't work because they would just be used to upkeep high DPS output much like Excog does now, and Excog is ogcd anyway.

What I have thought of is instead of having the MH/OH like you suggested similar to how tanks have a MT/OT, we have a Direct Heals (DH), and Barrier Healer (BH) dynamic. With this in mind AST would have to lose one of its secs, or its secs would have to work differently. A suggestion I have seen tossed around is that the two secs affect what AST cards do. We would then need a fourth healer to balance out the ratio of 2:1 DH or BH type healers the game would have at that point.

Right now, having two DHs isn't that big of a deal. Having two BHs though is a problem because shields do not stack. Barriers would need to be nerfed a bit so that they can stack with each other, and I feel shields providing more than 100% of HP restored to the barrier to be OP and just ridiculous. This can instead be achieved by another BH adding HP to the shield with their own GCDs. DH/BH would still be the ideal set up, but two BHs or two DHs can work because of the diverse utility they bring.

This then leads to healer utility, which needs to be spread out not only in order to establish diversity amongst the healers, but also grant balance through strengths and weaknesses amongst them that would allow the DH/BH dynamic to work.

[Seraphor]

AST doesn't need more of anything. What it does need is an identity of its own. It basically stole WHMs identity and added a card gimmick to it.

People keep saying this, but what exactly did AST steal from WHM?

GCD heals?
A DoT and a DPS spell and an AoE DPS spell? So it’s only different from SCH in that it only has one DoT rather than two?
A oGCD cooldown AoE regen? That actually functions differently?
Benefic and Benefic II? So it’s just the fact that SCH doesn’t have a Physick II that makes it “stolen from WHM”?

These seem like healer basics to me.
The Aspected spells don’t work the same, Diurnal Benefic/Helios have a heal plus a HoT so it’s not the same as Regen/Medica II.
If anything it takes this from SCH, as Noct Benefic/Helios are basically Adloquium/Succor.

What else could AST have used?
Seems to me the problem isn’t that AST stole from WHM, but that WHM doesn’t have anything to it besides the most basic healer toolkit.
Fix WHM, give it an actual identity and a unique mechanic that isn’t 100% passive and inconsequential, don’t strip stuff from AST in order to bring it down to WHM’s level.


The problem with shields is they’re not an efficient form of healing unless they’re timed absolutely perfectly. A pure shield healer wouldn’t work very well in difficult single healer content. SCH has HoTs via it’s fairy, and Diurnal is almost unanimously favoured over Nocturnal.
I don’t think this dichotomy like MT/OT would work, and they’ve specifically said they’re trying to balance three healers before they add a fourth.
If anything, they need to give all healers options to shield or regen, but have unique applications of those.
WHM needs shields in some form. Give it Protect back as an exclusive ability, add Shell to that, and have some kind of unique interaction with lilies.