is there any hope for monk?

[Kalise]

Yes, tornado kick is a regular part of your rotation, much like how on warrior onslaught is a regular part of your rotation during IR, and how holy spirit is a part of your rotation as pld, but you typically dont use it unless req is up.

IR is not War's rotation. It is their CD. Outside of IR, Onslaught is not a part of their rotation and is only used when its mobility is necessary.

Holy Spirit is part of your rotation as PLD. Since, when you don't have Fight or Flight up, you want to use it as often as possible, while still making sure to gain enough MP to Requiescat with a full MP bar. Since, outside of FoF, Holy Spirit is your highest damage skill (Not accounting for Goring Blade's full rotation)

What next? Your going to say that Enkindle Bahamut is a regular part of Summoner's rotation because it gets spammed on CD during the burst window they set up over 2 minutes?

You don't always fire off abilities off CD, but those abilities are still regular parts of your rotation. Just cos tornado kick has some strict requirements to be good, it doesn't mean its not a regular rotation skill

You need to learn what a "Rotation" actually is.

Rotations are the things that you use continuously, which are only adapted when CD's are up that might change how you play (Such as how WAR's will spam Fell Cleave during IR, how PLD will spam Holy Spirit during Requiescat, how SMN will spam Ruin II during Bahamut)

Tornado Kick fits in with CD's, because you typically only want to use it when you have a CD available to regain Greased. But not only that, due to the way Greased affects your damage, you have extra conditions surrounding its use not just having CD's available - Such as ensuring you have enough duration on your Demolish and sometimes also trying to fit it into the tail end of your RoF.

If its intent was to be tied to Shoulder Tackle/Perfect Balance... Why not simply make it so that the skill is unusable unless you've used Shoulder Tackle/Perfect Balance without it consuming Greased?

You're not missing skills, but you weave those 4, with forbidden chakra coming off cd randomly you can weave a lot more.

I still don't see the need for it. I've never experienced a point in the game where I was unable to weave in skills fast enough. Outside of Machinists Wildfire rotation, because the oGCD's have animations that prevent double weaving...

I don't quite understand your point about Tornado kick refreshing the buffs/ debuffs, also the point is that mnk isn't SAM or NIN, its its own thing, and its thing is maintaining buffs.

Buff maintenance isn't its own thing though.

Literally all the mDPS do that thing. Heck, DRG even has the exact same buff maintenance combo > damage combo flip-flop rotation.

But even DRG gets more lenient timers for its maintenance.

Like, MNK's buff/debuff maintenance timers makes sense if it was all about keeping 3 Greased and having tons of SkS to keep punching madly so that their short timers are still somewhat lenient because you perform your rotations so much faster. But they're not. They're arbitrarily designed around slowing down because TK eats their Greased and RoF eats their SkS.

It doesn't take much at all to get your maintenance buffs back

It takes at least 4 GCD's.

That's significant. Also, that's only if you have Perfect Balance available to use (Which also means one less TK because you have to use the PB duration to spam out your 3x Snap Punch for Greased + Twin Snake + Dragon Kick)

In a world where you don't have Perfect Balance available, then you have to use 6 GCD's + Riddle of Wind (Also costing a TK)

If you have neither available, you have to use 9 GCD's. (Depending on how much downtime you had and whether you spammed GCD Meditate or GCD Form Shift during said downtime)

I don't get why you're saying you have nothing wrong with making the rotation more complex, when its arguably the rotations complexity (or clunk) that you have an issue with.

Monk isn't complex. It's simple.

It's literally, 123/123 and use Tornado Kick when you have things set up so that it won't be a DPS loss.

That's not complex. That's simple and just clunky.

Complexity =/= clunkiness.

Complexity will be something to do with how many options you have available where they each have ideal situations. So would be more closely shown through something like NIN where their combo finisher can alternate between Aeolian Edge or Armor Crush depending on where they are currently positioned (As opposed to MNK where you just do your 123 irregardless of if you hit the positional or not because even a non-positional combo'd Bootshine/True Strike does equal or more damage than a positional combo'd Dragon Kick/Twin Snakes) or their Ninjutsu where you have Doton/Raiton/Fuma Shuriken to pick from depending on how laggy you are and if you can snapshot a buff (With the boss standing in Doton for its full duration)

Clunk is when things are awkward or not fluid, because of poor design. Such as how DRG loses eye stacks when Blood of the Dragon drops. How MCH has RNG for their combo and awkward animations to deal with for their oGCD skills. How DRK has to mash Dark Arts before most of their skills and how it has a CD so you can't DA for an oGCD skill and a GCD skill back to back.

Having form shift be ogcd would mess with the buff timers even more, cos even if you extended the buff timers, the rotation would just be about squeezing out as many non buff combos as you can, which would make the timing still tight.

It wouldn't mess with them, since it would be easier to maintain them. Since you'd be able to skip to the skills that would refresh them more easily. Especially for Greased which requires Coeurl, which is 2 GCD's to get to (5 seconds) meaning you need at least that long to get there as is.

Also I don't see the issue with it being 5 secs to form shift over to the right form to start the targetting.

5 seconds of Form Shifting is annoying to do pre-pull. Especially if I also want to Meditate pre-pull.

Like, we're talking 7 GCD's pre-pull to be maximally efficient. That's really god damn annoying to deal with when you want to optimize in all content (It's less annoying in Raids since you have countdowns so people can pre-pot and pre-cast anyway)

[Physic]

@Kalise

uhhh why are you calling different skills 123

call them 123 456

Doing 123456126453
is not the same as 123123123123
and if you get enough skill speed it starts looking like
123456456123

so your rotation evolves and changes, and changes again with like riddle.

mnk is different in that you are not commited to one chain or the other.


optimal monk rotations change based on your skill speed and greased lightning level.

which also changes when you use riddle/tk

also there no reason you would take 9 cool downs to get back gl3, you basically use it right before a couerl stance skill, so you will need 6 or 3