Is Zodiark evil?

[Theodric]

There isn't anything to suggest as much. Absolutely everything we know about Hydaelyn and Zodiark is coloured by bias. Shadowbringers is supposedly going to give us answers in regards to their story and the simple fact that things have been vague and dragged out for so long suggests to me that it will not be a case of black and white morality.

[RopeDrink]

Arbert from the WoD quest-line words it in the simplest form: "We were blind to the truth once so I tell you this as one fool to another. Light, Dark, it doesn't matter. What matters is how you choose to use them".

Zodiark and Hydaelyn are two sides of the same coin. We know that both light and dark (unchallenged) pretty much nets the same result in terms of the worlds they inhabit, ie. total destruction, as evidenced by the WoD quest-line. Just listen to the tale of the FFXIV-WOD's to hear what it was like having Hydaelyn achieve victory on their shard. We didn't know it at the time, but it's a pivotal example of what would spring-board us to becoming WoD's in an upcoming expansion - the fact that if we didn't, and continued doing what we've been doing, we'd have had the exact same fate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMr_BZddAw

As such, it would be a safe assumption that Zodiark is not entirely evil, just that it is the opposite side. In short, this topic has appeared in past FF games as well, such as the Warriors of Darkness in FFIII - representing Dark does not make you inherently evil, much like representing Light doesn't make you inherently good. The difference is that we have represented Light/Hyde since the beginning and thus have the bias of one side. To enjoy our world the way it is, we need balance, yet that balance requires a constant loop between Light/Dark in their never-ending battle for supremacy.

Elidibus is a counter-example to this. We see him as bad because he's an Ascian, one who wishes the death of the WoL to redress the balance issue, whereas the non-white Ascians are almost exclusively on the side of Dark and will typically do what is necessary to tip the scales in favour of Zodiark (just like we've been tipping the scales in favour of Hyde).

[CerusSerenade]

I imagine if Elidisbus really is dedicated to the balance, we will become allied with him once he becomes aware of our actions on the First, that or he'll get killed before that can happen. Either way, the nature of just what the antagonist is will shift once one or the other happens. It won't just be "the ascians" or "the light", it will be members on both sides constantly trying to further the light and dark, and those just trying to amuse themselves of it like Zenos.

[RopeDrink]

I imagine if Elidisbus really is dedicated to the balance, we will become allied with him once he becomes aware of our actions on the First, that or he'll get killed before that can happen.

I don't expect we'll outright ally with Elidibus, but I most certainly do expect a moment where there is a somewhat neutral face-off, where his previous (nasty) intentions were of necessity, where we realize his role as Emissary is not much different to what Minfilia's role is as Emissary (addressing the balance from their side), just that they're doing the same thing from the opposite side, and how they would interact with each other. That their goal is more about the balance rather than tipping the scales in total favour of their side. No doubt he will not apologize for his actions, merely explain them and put more context on the balance issue.

In short, they'll be the true-neutral (or, at worst, neutral-good and neutral-evil). We're the lawful-good, Ascians are the chaotic-evil, yet all mention of 'good' and 'evil' is simply replaced with 'light' and 'dark', and that neither side is inherently 'good' or 'evil', not when either side winning plunges all life into the exact same fate (total destruction of their world). Assuming we do actively begin to address the balance as WoD's, then there would be next to no reason for Elidibus to seek our death from there. The problem, however, is whether he will still be inhabiting Zenos body when Actual-Zenos and his Resonant powah finds him. If you truly believe Elidibus will die, then that would be the most obvious method.

This whole story is setting up a huge amount of glorious grey areas.

- Gaius, ie. "Shadow Hunter", is actively slaying Ascians. This, ironically, would be a huge scale-tipper towards Hydaelyn for the most part, thus we may need to address it whether we like it or not. That doesn't even mention the past ties we've had with him beforehand.
- Elidibus, whether he is a true emissary, will very likely change his tune with us as WoD's and be presented in a less antagonistic light. Unfortunately, this may not save him from Gaius or Zenos.
- What will be expected of us? Will we have to resort to uncomfortable actions in the name of Darkness? How far have the scales dipped? How far do we need to go to balance them?
- Black Rose. Nothing would sell its dire potency more than having it kill off one (or many) cast members. I fully expect to see these chemical weapons inflict ghastly results.
- How Minfilia's role as a true emissary will effect others. Would there be any form of bias towards her former friends, or will they be shunned. How different will she be?
- Varis and his clear distaste for the fact that Ascians are the spearhead of the empire. While I find it hard to believe we'll ever ally with him, I fully expect him to stick those glorious shoulderpads into the backs of his Ascian peers at some point. Will we then be able to vie for peace ala the previous politics cutscene, or will he truly go full ham for calamitous rejoining?

And so on and so forth.

[LineageRazor]

I don't expect we'll outright ally with Elidibus, but I most certainly do expect a moment where there is a somewhat neutral face-off, where his previous (nasty) intentions were of necessity, where we realize his role as Emissary is not much different to what Minfilia's role is as Emissary (addressing the balance from their side), just that they're doing the same thing from the opposite side, and how they would interact with each other. That their goal is more about the balance rather than tipping the scales in total favour of their side. No doubt he will not apologize for his actions, merely explain them and put more context on the balance issue.

One problem with dropping Elidibus into the True Neutral or Neutral Dark categories is that, in addition to whatever "balancing" he's trying to do, he's unabashedly on board with the whole Rejoining plan. It bears repeating that the Rejoining requires the murder of countless billions of people. Perhaps it's humancentric thinking, but that solution is not a viable one, no matter how desperate the reason.

It could well be that Elidibus has knowledge that makes this the LOGICAL course of action. Perhaps the way the worlds are now, leaving them Unjoined will inevitably lead to the destruction of all of them. So, it's a "kill many to save a few, or kill no one and lose everyone" situation. From a purely logical perspective, it makes sense to save a few, rather than lose everyone.

Even if that's the case, though, the fact that he keeps his cards close to the chest indicate that he believes these logical reasons are ones he feels illogical beings would refuse to accept - that in their ignorance, they'll try to look for another solution, where there is none to be found. And he would be RIGHT - we WOULD look for another way. And maybe, in spite of all Elidibus's logic, we'd find one.

And maybe that solution would result in a situation where the Ascians are not on top, and Zodiark is not free. It is not to Elidibus's benefit to find an alternate solution, because the one they have is guaranteed to work, and will greatly benefit he and his kind in the bargain. All it requires is the extermination of a pestilence of lesser beings - humans - and honestly, wouldn't that be for the best, anyway?

No, all of the supposed duplicity Hydaelyn has exhibited so far is barely a candle's flicker in the face of Elidibus's blazing inferno. He may seek balance, but balance is not the end goal. The balance he seeks is one that supports other goals, and those other goals are not good for us, or any of the billions of beings like us.

[Lauront]

The problem here is that we have no real idea whether he is even aware of other "solutions" existing. The Ascians act on the knowledge they have, and whilst it is considerable, they're apparently not acting under Zodiark's active guidance, or else the XIIIth would not have succumbed to a flood of Darkness. Now, if the Ascians believe that all creation stemming from the fragmentation of the worlds is false - as Solus suggests - then they may be rather uncompromising in their desire to hit the "reset" button, and we do know that some amongst their ranks revel in causing mischief, i.e. take pleasure in the means as much as the end goal. At the same time, there are probably those who act out of a sense of duty to Zodiark, and possibly some who have grown fed up of it. My guess is that Elidibus falls into the former category, and Solus into the latter (especially if he is possessing Varis, unbeknownst to us all), whereas Nabriales and Lahabrea, and perhaps some others, find greater enjoyment in the means than the end itself.

As for the Rejoinings not being viable, well they certainly are "viable". They may not be desirable to those who would be sacrificed, certainly, but they're viable all the same as they will achieve the desired end result.

Then there's the question of the fragmentation of the Source and the Reflections being an inherent source of instability, if the breadcrumbs Banri Oda gave at the JP fanfest are to be believed. If it is the case that the Crystals must be rejoined, Hydaelyn's opposition to Zodiark and intransigence towards it would be motivated by a benefit to her, namely not being rejoined to him. I'm not yet going to say she's duplicitous, but much like Elidibus, she does seem to selectively withhold information; bear in mind he even does so with regard to his fellow Paragons, where necessary, causing some of them to doubt his methods. If it is true, that the Crystals have to be rejoined somehow to stave off inevitable instability, that may also motivate some of the Ascians, such as Elidibus, to be devoted to reviving Zodiark.

I don't expect we'll outright ally with Elidibus, but I most certainly do expect a moment where there is a somewhat neutral face-off, where his previous (nasty) intentions were of necessity, where we realize his role as Emissary is not much different to what Minfilia's role is as Emissary (addressing the balance from their side), just that they're doing the same thing from the opposite side, and how they would interact with each other. That their goal is more about the balance rather than tipping the scales in total favour of their side. No doubt he will not apologize for his actions, merely explain them and put more context on the balance issue.

I think that'd be pretty neat and tie in with the role he played in the Warring Triad arc.

The problem, however, is whether he will still be inhabiting Zenos body when Actual-Zenos and his Resonant powah finds him. If you truly believe Elidibus will die, then that would be the most obvious method.

I'm not convinced he'll go down that way, yet. The WoL was able to best Zenos and possesses the BoL over and above this, and still Elidibus was able to hold his own, without even apparently invoking the Blessing of Darkness, if Zodiark can even grant such in his current state. If Zenos achieves it, my guess is that it would be through Solus backstabbing Elidibus and assisting Zenos (perhaps in the vein of the whole "family enterprise" thing he joked about, especially since Zenos could be useful as a means to pester the WoL), or through whatever trick Gaius and his posse have - possibly the Heart of Sabik, but if it's that, it would tie to Zodiark and so would work... until it didn't. Either way, I don't think a permanent death is in the cards for him, unless they want to throw the Ascians into disarray and have a more volatile figure like Solus take charge... which is entirely possible. He's good for cutscenes.

- Gaius, ie. "Shadow Hunter", is actively slaying Ascians. This, ironically, would be a huge scale-tipper towards Hydaelyn for the most part, thus we may need to address it whether we like it or not. That doesn't even mention the past ties we've had with him beforehand.

And that is the ironic element here. Should they succeed in purging the Empire, they will likely tip the already volatile balance too much towards light.

- Elidibus, whether he is a true emissary, will very likely change his tune with us as WoD's and be presented in a less antagonistic light.

That's what I am hoping for, to provide a bit more nuance to the story. I'd much rather they did that to flesh his character out more, than have him become Lahabrea 2.0.

- What will be expected of us? Will we have to resort to uncomfortable actions in the name of Darkness? How far have the scales dipped? How far do we need to go to balance them?

And the question of whether it will involve bearing Zodiark's Blessing, since Hydaelyn's is why we by and large spread light to such a potent degree.

- Varis and his clear distaste for the fact that Ascians are the spearhead of the empire. While I find it hard to believe we'll ever ally with him, I fully expect him to stick those glorious shoulderpads into the backs of his Ascian peers at some point. Will we then be able to vie for peace ala the previous politics cutscene, or will he truly go full ham for calamitous rejoining?

Assuming he's not already been compromised by a certain Ascian. I enjoy him as a character, so I am hoping even if he is possessed, he'll survive it and return to see the Empire back to more prosperous times. I don't think he simply reserves his distaste for the Ascians, but also for their master, and for Hydaelyn, given his doctrine of putting the reins of history back into man's hands.

[Theodric]

FFXIV is also a love letter to previous games in the franchise. More than once we have seen a sworn enemy become an ally - temporarily or even permanently. It isn't completely out there as a theory that Elidibus may have a change of heart. Nobody can say for certain whether it will or will not happen other than the development team. There's also the simple fact that the antagonists in this game have a lot of fans and as such the writers will strive to give them a satisfying conclusion when and where they can.

[EdwinLi]

Currently I am only guess that Zodiark is not Evil but the Ascians are evil because they are just Fanatics that worship him to a point they take extreme methods to "Serve" him in their belief even though he never wanted it that way.

You know how some people in religion takes things a bit too far in their beliefs as history has shown.

[LineageRazor]

Assuming he's not already been compromised by a certain Ascian. I enjoy him as a character, so I am hoping even if he is possessed, he'll survive it and return to see the Empire back to more prosperous times. I don't think he simply reserves his distaste for the Ascians, but also for their master, and for Hydaelyn, given his doctrine of putting the reins of history back into man's hands.

It bears repeating: the evidence we have so far indicates that a world where Hydaelyn stands unopposed IS a world where the reins of history are in man's hands. Hydaelyn wishes for her children to walk free, to follow their own destinies. The only times she interferes is in order to oppose the Ascians. It stands to reason that if the Ascians were out of the picture, Hydaelyn would be content to remain behind the scenes, watching, but never interfering with the destiny of humans. (Note: this all assumes that Hydaelyn is NOT a secretly evil deity, and the evidence we have so far is an accurate picture of her as a whole.)

Of course, to a man like Varis, the very existence of a powerful being like Hydaelyn could well be considered intolerable, not for what she WOULD do, but for what she COULD do. It wouldn't surprise me if he felt the need to seek Hy's destruction (or at the very least, the total neutering of her power), just to secure his Empire from the chance that she might change her mind in the future about remaining hands-off. Sadly, there are folks who believe that if they are not the most powerful beings, any being who is more powerful, no matter how innocent or benevolent, must be murdered to ensure their place at the top of the totem pole.

Folks keep straying into the Shin Megami-eque assumption that we have two deities vying for control of humanity - but the deities we have don't really match that profile at all. One deity's desires are completely unknown; Zodiark may not care at all about humanity, and their destruction in order to secure his rebirth is totally irrelevant to him. The other put her children on the world, said "Have fun!" and then butted out, as far as we can tell.

[RopeDrink]

Folks keep straying into the Shin Megami-eque assumption that we have two deities vying for control of humanity - but the deities we have don't really match that profile at all.

"As the Ascians must serve as instruments to Zodiark's will, so too must others carry out the will of Hydaelyn".

Honestly, the only indication of anyone trying to gain control over humanity that I have seen is from characters like Varis, who is pro-human right down to the letter. Regardless of whether or not he is being controlled, he'd the the prime candidate for taking humanity to the extreme. For the actual powers behind the two-way balance struggle (Zod/Hyd), humanity to them just seems like background noise. Even the Ascians, who focus more on growing darkness through chaos, would merely use humanity to achieve this via manipulation and scheming. It would not happen if they were lorded over or controlled in their entirety, other than viable pawns.

As for Hyde, I never got the impression that she is just casually allowing humanity to do their own thing. If anything, the more I see/hear of her leading up to Shadowbringers, the more I keep seeing Zod/Hyd as being the true-neutrals of the batch who probably care less about us than one might thing.