Removing Tank Stance Argument

[Kalise]

So.. what? tanks just become braindead DPS that by default have a constant enmity boost to all their attacks?

Only if you design them to be.

Or alternatively, you can design them to have differing playstyles based on what they're doing.

Such as having "Tank Stance" offer skills that react to incoming damage. Such as how Shield Swipe works, how TBN can provide extra resources when used to mitigate damage.

You know... Tank stuff. Where you mitigate damage and are rewarded for doing it well.

While you make "DPS Stance" offer more skills that function best when you're not being hit in the face by the boss. Skills such as Cover/Passage of Arms which requires you to position yourself in a way that would be detrimental if you were getting cleaved by the boss. Maybe skills with Side/Flank/Rear positionals to get bonus damage in a similar amount to how the "Tank Stance" exclusive skills do.

You know... Actually designing the role to play into its role.

Not just sticking Damage+/Defence- and Damage-/Defence+ modifiers onto braindead DPS.

DO MY POINTS HAVE MORE WEIGHT IF I USE BOLD AND CAPS TOO?

Such a thing was not done for "Weight" but to emphasis a point that has been either missed or ignored by someone.

Given that the statement in question was one that was a fundamental problem that has existed from the very beginning of the implementation of "Tank Stance vs DPS Stance" and is one of great importance when it comes to actually making Stances relevant in any way, shape or form.

Since, otherwise you get things such as:

Or leave it as is or remove tank stances all together since a decent tank really doesn't use tank stance.

Things that anyone who's ever played at max level should know.

That, because Tank stances offer a penalty to Tanks, that they're used as little as possible. Where ideal play is literally to just pull and use like 2-3 GCD's and then leave it. Where Tanks can be considered "Bad at pulling" because they need to use an extra 1-2 GCD's before they are able to sit in DPS stance for the rest of the encounter.

As such, if Tank Stances are designed in a way where they're giving damage penalties, they will continue to not be used.

If you design "MT" and "OT" Tanks where they are in default "Tank" and "DPS" stances and only offer CD's where they can swap over, then you'll simply never see "MT" Tanks played and everyone will use only "OT's" and only use the CD on the pull if it provides a boost in enmity (Which you didn't specify if it would. If it didn't, the skill would simply never be put onto anyone's action bar)

[Seraphor]

Fine, let me present this is a different way.

One tank, say... Paladin, doesn’t put out as much damage as Dark Knight, by default. (Instead of saying it has a trait that decreases damage, let’s just say it has lower potencies to its skills)
This Paladin, then uses the cooldown-ability Sword Oath, to boost its DPS for a burst phase. With this burst factored in, its overall DPS is back on par with DRK.

Then, look at Dark Knight. Darkside becomes a trait, pretty much as it is now. But Grit becomes a cooldown-ability that boosts defence for a period of time and alters the effects of a few abilities, such as Plunge, which under Grit has an enmity boost and lower potency. A similar effect could be applied to perhaps Hard Slash and Abyssal Drain or something.

There is nothing in there that says “decreases damage”, except for perhaps those couple DRK abilities but that can be accepted as the quirk of that jobs mechanics.
This is functionally identical to the system I just described.

[Kalise]

Fine, let me present this is a different way.

One tank, say... Paladin, doesn’t put out as much damage as Dark Knight, by default.

Then Paladin would never see play.

[Seraphor]

Then Paladin would never see play.

Please read the entire post.

[Seraphor]

You seem to be jaded by the terms MT and OT.

If you would read my post in its entirety, you'd see that it's more akin to one tank having a burst phase, and another having more control over defence periods.

Basically, Paladin would have a more gradual defense curve, but have DPS spikes due to its "DPS stance cooldown".
Meanwhile Dark Knight would have a more consistent DPS output, but have spikes in its defense that you'd time for tank busters.

Functionally, neither is necessarily inferior to the other with the right balance, they simply provide different play styles. One plays more like a DPS with fewer abilities required to mitigate damage, the other has a less demanding DPS rotation and has to work more at timing its defense skills.
Perhaps these roles are the wrong way around, but I've only used them as examples for the concept.

[Kalise]

Please read the entire post.

I did.

Paladin wouldn't be played.

DRK would use its CD on the pull for 2-3 GCD's and then cancel it early.

It would then no longer use the skill for the rest of the encounter.

Functionally, neither is necessarily inferior to the other with the right balance, they simply provide different play styles.

There is no "Right Balance" with this.

In this scenario, Paladin would never be played.

See: Heavensward.

Unless, this "Burst Damage" CD was like ridiculously powerful. Like Inner Release on steroids powerful. And thus became OP during times when the raid will all pop damage CD's.

Also "Different playstyles"?

There would literally be no different playstyles. It would still be functionally mash DPS combo's. Only one Tank will be popping a DPS CD as it comes up (Kind of like literally how Tanks currently play) while the other will be simply... Not pressing its equivalent CD.

Also...

In this scenario where the "OT" Tanks are by default in "DPS Stance" and have a CD to improve their defence at the cost of damage...

What if, someone decided to make say... Shade Shift or Riddle of Earth. Do the same things? Increase enmity, increase defences, decrease damage.

Exactly what, in this scenario, differentiates these "Tanks" from these DPS jobs at this point?

As such, do these "Tanks" cease to be Tanks and are now simply DPS? Given how simply DPS jobs can be turned into the exactly the same design?

[Seraphor]

With this burst factored in, its overall DPS is back on par with DRK.

Your reading comprehension is appalling.



"DRK would use its CD on the pull for 2-3 GCD's and then cancel it early.

It would then no longer use the skill for the rest of the encounter."

It would have to use it for tank busters.



"Exactly what, in this scenario, differentiates these "Tanks" from these DPS jobs at this point?"

This was exactly my point for your "no tank stances"... stance. so what's the difference?

[ADVSS]

Fine, let me present this is a different way.

One tank, say... Paladin, doesn’t put out as much damage as Dark Knight, by default. (Instead of saying it has a trait that decreases damage, let’s just say it has lower potencies to its skills)
This Paladin, then uses the cooldown-ability Sword Oath, to boost its DPS for a burst phase. With this burst factored in, its overall DPS is back on par with DRK.

Then, look at Dark Knight. Darkside becomes a trait, pretty much as it is now. But Grit becomes a cooldown-ability that boosts defence for a period of time and alters the effects of a few abilities, such as Plunge, which under Grit has an enmity boost and lower potency. A similar effect could be applied to perhaps Hard Slash and Abyssal Drain or something.

There is nothing in there that says “decreases damage”, except for perhaps those couple DRK abilities but that can be accepted as the quirk of that jobs mechanics.
This is functionally identical to the system I just described.

I dont like the "well its their quirk" part, BUT

Wouldnt the best solution, to lower button bloat be to boost enmity as ab added effect of cooldowns like rampart, etc.
You gotta remember high preformance tanking and dancing, sure. Some dont drop stance back and forth especially novice, But if "youre gonna do a big pullll" at least have the defensives that are there aid in doing so. That would alleviate a lot of stress on novice healers as well.
Also rampart/etc doesnt reduce damage potential, why should a just their quirk to hold hate even be acceptable?
Edit: On second thought, even this is a bad idea considering how cd are saved for tank busters, Maybe have then just an enmity cooldown, I still dont get why tanks arent allowed to deal damage, but ok.

[Seraphor]

I dont like the "well its their quirk" part, BUT

Wouldnt the best solution, to lower button bloat be to boost enmity as ab added effect of cooldowns like rampart, etc.
You gotta remember high preformance tanking and dancing, sure. Some dont drop stance back and forth especially novice, But if "youre gonna do a big pullll" at least have the defensives that are there aid in doing so. That would alleviate a lot of stress on novice healers as well.
Also rampart/etc doesnt reduce damage potential, why should a just their quirk to hold hate even be acceptable?

I mean sure, I never touched on any specific mitigation skills, so I'm not apposed to this sort of thing at all. I was laying out an overall design philosophy.

But about the "quirk", with overall DPS balance considered, this isn't an issue.
Foul has a potency of 650, Midare Setsugekka has a potency of 720. The context of that jobs rotation and how the skills used plays a much bigger role than just the potency of the skill.
This case would be no different. A lowered potency on a couple of skills doesn't mean THAT JOB WILL NOT BE PLAYED.

[Kalise]

Your reading comprehension is appalling.

Though, IF DPS was averaged out, so that Tank A popping their offensive CD ended up doing the same damage as Tank B who consistently did more damage (Ignoring how they'd end up cheesing things to never use their damage down CD and thus start edging out in damage, or how Tank A's burst CD lines up better with other rDPS CD's and boss downtime and thus can reverse the situation where Tank B is now the one with worse damage - Like with the current situation with Tanks where WAR's burst nets them higher overall DPS due to those factors)

Then what you've done...

... Is nothing at all.

You've simply recreated the exact rendition of current Tanks, only worse.

WAR uses a burst DPS CD to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time, but deals crap damage the rest of the time.

PLD has a dual-burst phase where they alternate between Requiescat for a short amount of high output and Fight or Flight where they have an extended period of higher damage.

DRK has a more consistently high DPS output, with minor "Burst" through Blood Weapon extensions with Delirium.

It would have to use it for tank busters.

Living Dead, Cover, Holmgang, Hallowed Ground, Intervention, Rampart, Vengeance/Sentinel/Shadow Wall would disagree.

Unless you really do gimp DRK's defences while not using their crappy CD to the point where they literally were just mDPS...

This was exactly my point for your "no tank stances"... stance. so what's the difference?

You know the fact that in a "No Tank Stances" scenario Tanks have:

* More natural defence (So they simply take less damage)

* Enmity Combo's (To build higher than usual Enmity)

* Lower overall DPS (Even when accounting for CD's)

* A plethora of defensive CD's and skills to use to mitigate damage

* Higher than average Enmity generation (To make up for the DPS discrepancy)

Meanwhile in your scenario, where half the Tanks are just mDPS with a strong defensive CD... You literally can just turn the existing defensive CD's on the 2 mDPS that have them into similar skills and there'd be no difference.

Also, by the way, my stance isn't "No Tank Stance" it's "MEANINGFUL Stances"

Not just slapping increased/decreased damage taken/dealt modifiers onto a braindead DPS job. Which is what current Stances do and what your suggestion continues to do.

I'd want Stances to literally cause you to have different skills that benefit you in different positions, so you play differently when you're tanking the boss to when you're OT and are just slapping the bosses butt waiting for adds/tank swap.

But of course, you'd know this if you spent a little more time reading my posts and a little less time accusing me of not reading your own.