Removing Tank Stance Argument

[OdinelStarrei]

Snip.

I feel compelled to take this post and deconstruct it, because it's not accurate and is spreading misinformation.

like to see the tanks stance eliminated completely is because of the unnecessary stress it puts on the group

That hasn't been mentioned by my post earlier, or by any posts in this topic. Most of the discussion has been focused on the risk vs reward imbalances, limited rotations, and a lack of need in most encounters. The encounter brings the stress, not the tanks. Unless you're playing with subpar players.

go into DPS which at that point gives them the more likelihood of critical hits and an additional 20% of damage in addition to reduced hit points.

This is one of the worst offenders by far, and shows a lack of understanding of what tank stance does on each tank, and what the defense stat is in reference to how the game deals damage. Nothing about tank stance does anything about Critical Hit rate. It does nothing. The only thing in the game that affects Critical Hit rate is Awareness, which you SHOULD be using on every pull in dungeons if it's available, or at periods with lots of movement or auto attacks in a Savage raid. O11S post-pantokrator 1/2, pre and post Tail End in O10S etc etc.

There is also a misconception on what 20% means in accordance to tank stance. First of all, WAR doesn't get this. It gets the HP increase of 25% with no increases in defense. DRK and PLD do not get increased HP from Tank stance either. They're all different, no one gets both. Also, the game should be tuned for default defensive values on tanks assuming proper gear, outside of some very specific scenarios. Essentially, you're not taking INCREASED damage. You're taking the INTENDED damage, and using tank stance to DECREASE that value. That's not the same thing from a damage intake or encounter design perspective.

As someone who plays both tank and healer I can tell you I don't see a need to ever drop a stance for a tank. The DPS is miniscule.

This is not true. The difference between stances is so vast, multiple people IN THIS TOPIC have discussed on how overly punishing it is on the DPS. But I'll re-iterate it in this post.

Your base offensives are nerfed 20% (25% for WAR). I can say nerfed, because the game is ADJUSTING the damage, much like how tank stance ADJUSTS the damage you are taking. The actual problem is the removal of several abilities that comprise of the rotation and resource generation. On DRK and PLD, using tank stance REDUCES my resources to use cooldowns, which is what you should be using over tank stance. The damage reduction is higher then 25%, it's over 40% after you compensate for the lack of offensive skills that are gated behind the stance.

Seriously, I need to get this point across, that if we had more DPS enrage mechanics outside of Extremes and Savage, you would see so many more wipes from those checks alone. Tanks can pull over 60% of a DPS in an encounter. 2 tanks working together can do more damage then a single DPS in a trial. A good DRK/WAR in a dungeon can do the same, or even MORE damage then a DPS with cooldown management, proper positioning, and bursting. If they can't do that, it's the player's fault, not the design of the job or encounter.

If you don't understand these last few points, I wonder what you have actually healed or tanked that could promote such a mindset.

heavy AOE damage the entire group is taking damage and if the Healer stops focusing for 1 Global cooldown or rather 2.5 seconds the tank ends up dead.

Where is this happening? I struggle to think of encounters in SAVAGE where this happens. Doesn't your party know when this is happening? Why isn't your tank using cooldowns? Better yet, why aren't your DPS using Second Wind/Bloodbath to mitigate the unavoidable damage? Better yet, why aren't your healers using regens or shields to mitigate incoming AoEs? Shouldn't they have topped the party before a AoE happens? A Largesse+Succor/Indom, Media II regen, or Largesse+Aspected Helios in either Sect, Earthly Star (OP), or pre-AoE Collective Unconscious are more then enough for any baseline AoE that a boss can do. Anything beyond that is Savage territory, where people actually help you mitigate AoEs further with Reprisal and Addle. If you can point to a specific encounter that you've seen trouble with, there are solutions available that are not exclusively relying on one person. It's a party effort with raidwides.

some of the DPS mechanics should be changed for healers as well. How many times have we all seen a scholar show up in a dungeon summoning Eos to do all of the healing in high-end content the tank dies

This isn't Healer Roles, but I'm going to pretend it is. No. It's already easy enough to press one or two buttons to keep up DoTs and basic damage output when nothing is happening. I see SCHs not casting Physick/Adlo all the time. Why? Because Eos is actually pretty bonkers when used properly to boost healing, passive tether and embraces are really strong, and Aetherflow abilities with no cast time like Indom and Lustrate have INSANE potency. Tank is at half-health? Doesn't matter, Excogitation! If they're using their kit improperly, the kit is not broken, the player is not playing the job correctly. It's the same thing when DPS don't press weaponskill combos. They're playing the job wrong.

this isn't World of Warcraft we're supposed to DPS heal yourself

Almost every job in the game can self-heal.
Tanks: Clemency for PLD, Soul Survivor + heavy shielding for DRK, Storm's Path on WAR. None of those require tank stance. You can weave an Equilibrium in Defiance or use Grit+Souleater healing if things are getting scary.
DPS: Bloodbath is HUGE. Second Wind has saved lives in my group, which are on every DPS except casters, who can help mitigate, and have increased magical defense. SAM has Third Eye. RDM has Vercure.
WoW is not a mythical scary monster that is destroying the game and the community with it's playerbase migration. Lessons from other MMOs are key for improving our own game. 2.0 literally would not exist without lessons learned from WoW in particular.

The rest of this post I can't quote. There are too many personal anecdotes that aren't backed up with factual information. If you're going to do this, I recommend citations like fight timelines you've taken of the encounter in question or an in-depth analysis of the encounter to better illustrate your points. I've posted this before in other threads, but just because YOUR tanks are bad, does not mean the job is broken. It means you have BAD PARTY MEMBERS. Although, I will address one last point that I feel is important.

why do the dungeon at all if you don't need anything from it? I'm the person who refuses to continue after a couple of wipes because I don't want to spend an excessive amount of time trying to complete the dungeon. If you find a dungeon boring don't play it's simple. Please don't ruin the experience for everyone else.

This particular piece blows my mind. I do roulettes because they provide resources like tomes and gil to further my goals in the game. I still craft, I still want to earn gil, I still do WT, and I want to contribute to my guild, whether that means placing things in the Guild chest for future like raid food and potions, or gearing up our new players for Shadowbringers. I don't need a superfluous reason to play the game anyway, because that means unsubbing or AFKing in town, which has it's own "assumptions" on what you're doing. I find the game fun, so I play it.
If you're the kind of person to give up on an encounter after a few wipes, it makes complete sense why you have these thoughts. You've never actually gone through progression of a difficult encounter that can take dozens if not HUNDREDS of wipes before the team understands the encounter completely. You develop a lot of patience for other people and for mistakes that way. If you are having trouble in LEVELING dungeons, maybe it's because people are new? And leveling? They don't have their entire kit? Stop painting the entire playerbase with a broad stroke because you've had bad experiences in some of the most unbalanced, mandatory, and lackluster content in the game.

Please re-read the thread to better understand the points people are making about this topic, since a lot of it has been discussed already.

I doubt your opinion will change, because they never do about things like this(see signature), but this post simply cannot be unchallenged in case someone who's never read the forums comes across a post like this, without reading the rest of the thread, and does not possess the in-game knowledge to refute it on their own.