Removing Tank Stance Argument

[Ekimmak]

Tank Stance: Decreased damage taken/increased healing and Max HP.
Offtank stance: Decreased threat generated.

No damage penalties, no damage buffs, doesn't screw up current dungeons or raid mechanics, and it doesn't mean a massive gear difference between tanks will cause one tank to monopolise threat even when they really don't want to (although maybe I'm just talking from raising an alt and not being able to hold threat against people scaled down for trials)

[Kabooa]

Tank Stance: Decreased damage taken/increased healing and Max HP.
Offtank stance: Decreased threat generated.

No damage penalties, no damage buffs, doesn't screw up current dungeons or raid mechanics, and it doesn't mean a massive gear difference between tanks will cause one tank to monopolise threat even when they really don't want to (although maybe I'm just talking from raising an alt and not being able to hold threat against people scaled down for trials)

So only ever use Tank stance, because Shirk exists.

[Ekimmak]

So only ever use Tank stance, because Shirk exists.

You could have fooled me. Shirk seems to only be used when content demands a tankswap.

But if that's such a problem...

Tank Stance: Decreased damage taken/increased healing and Max HP. Decrease damage dealt for each other player in tankstance in the party.
Offtank stance: Decreased threat generated.

[Shurrikhan]

You could have fooled me. Shirk seems to only be used when content demands a tankswap.

How?

Although it can be used to solidify a tank swap, it's frequently used on cooldown as well, following Voke, in order to simply toss the MT 25% extra enmity every 2 minutes. It's incredibly effective, and I see this often even in normal raids so that tanks needn't use tank stance at all after the pull, so long as everyone else hits Diversion on CD or the Ninja hits Shadewalker on CD. (Yes, enmity in this game is 99% just remembering to hit CDs when they come off cooldown.)

But if that's such a problem...

Tank Stance: Decreased damage taken/increased healing and Max HP. Decrease damage dealt for each other player in tankstance in the party.
Offtank stance: Decreased threat generated.

...
...
...

Decreasing damage taken already increases eHP -- how much your HP (and therefore healing which restores your HP, and therefore the CDs or GCDs spent by healers on you) is worth.
Increasing Max HP further increases eHP.

Why on earth would you penalize the MT for the OT being an idiot and forgetting to drop tank stance?
Why would you decrease a tank's enmity modifiers to below that of a non-tank, regardless of stance? No tank stance should just be... no enmity benefits of tank stance. That alone already sets you to well less than half of the enmity you'd generate in tank stance.

[Ekimmak]

How?

Although it can be used to solidify a tank swap, it's frequently used on cooldown as well, following Voke, in order to simply toss the MT 25% extra enmity every 2 minutes. It's incredibly effective, and I see this often even in normal raids so that tanks needn't use tank stance at all after the pull, so long as everyone else hits Diversion on CD or the Ninja hits Shadewalker on CD. (Yes, enmity in this game is 99% just remembering to hit CDs when they come off cooldown.)

It *should* be. But maybe it's just a difference of groups between the two of us, because I don't see it a lot.

Why on earth would you penalize the MT for the OT being an idiot and forgetting to drop tank stance?
Why would you decrease a tank's enmity modifiers to below that of a non-tank, regardless of stance? No tank stance should just be... no enmity benefits of tank stance. That alone already sets you to well less than half of the enmity you'd generate in tank stance.

This is just me throwing out wild suggestions to make the stances relevant to the current meta.

They already ARE relevant, it's just they aren't relevant to the current meta, which is DPS is king. So, it's me theorycrafting of making it possible for one tank to generate a definite aggro lead over the other without sacrificing something (or turning it into 7 tank meta).

[LeoLupinos]

I don't think tank stance should be removed, but changed instead.

Tank stance: Reduces damage received.
DPS stance: Generates enmity.

That's it. The only 2 things a Tank should care for is surviving and doing enough Enmity to cover all the enmity the DPS generate with their damage.
I recently saw a lot of videos about WoW Classic, and the tank role there is this, and the damage output of the entire party is limited to the tank's capability to generate aggro, and to the DPS to reduce their aggro. It means that the DPS who is more capable of reducing their aggro will be the one that deals more damage, while the other ones will need to stop DPS to not die by aggro. If no DPS Job had a enmity reducer ability, then all of the DPS of the game would be doing the same damage, as they are gated behing a max limit of the Tank emnity. This could be a solution to "meta".

Also, if the current tank stance is reducing damage dealt (and thus reducing enmity generation) and also buffing enmity generation by a ammount that exceeds the enmity lost from the damage lost, isn't it easier to simplity into just giving half the enmity without reducing damage dealt?
Putting into numbers, while not being mathematically right:
Current Tank stance: Damage dealt -20% / Enmity generation +40%
Simplified: Enmity generation +20%

Both would generate the same Enmity, and would open Stances for strategical usages. DPS for Enmity, and when there's enough, either stay with it or change to Tank damage reductor.

It's very interesting seeing Tank role that way, a lot more meaningful and balanced, imo.

[ADVSS]

So give tank stance the ol' Cleric Stance approach? same great flavor turns itself off after 20 seconds?

Lets be honest, its been treated as a cd since a long time ago anyway
Not really a fan of the new cleric "stance" but some healers ive talked to love it b/c they forget to turn it off or double snap it due to lag spikes.

[linay]

Tank stance: Reduces damage received.
DPS stance: Generates enmity.

Why would the DPS stance be generating enmity over the tank stance?

I'd say get rid of "DPS" stance altogether.

Base tank ability regardless of no stance or any stance: higher enmity generation and higher max HP than DPS/Healer.

MT stance: increased personal shield/utility for all tanks (including WAR), increased enmity generation
OT stance: increased party shield/utility, reverse shirk: either takes some enmity from MT or gains a portion of enmity every time MT gains enmity

Remove shirk, tank swap happens by switching stance
Switching to MT stance acts like ultimatum.
Switching to OT stance slightly reduce enmity at the start to ensure new OT does not accidentally take enmity back from new MT.

Reduce/remove shield from Healer to make OT shield/utility more relevant.

[Big-Isaac]

I don't see why we need these contrived stance buttons in the first place. Even if you take them all off the GCD and just make them 1 button that toggles the stances (as they should have been from the start), what's the point? WHY do they need to be there?

IMO, the best way stances could have been handled would be to 1) make them affect your gameplay in meaningful ways and 2) trigger automatically under certain conditions, similar to MNK forms. For example, WAR stances could swap on certain rage thresholds, while PLD oaths could switch when you use certain skills (e.g. Shield Bash would put you into Shield Oath)
This design of having to actively hit a button that by itself does nothing at all is archaic, inefficient and awkward, no matter what you do with it.

[Seraphor]

There's certainly no point to having TWO stances. If you just make one of those the default, and the other one modifies your defense/attack in relation, that would already simplify things by 50%.

But then you have to wonder if having this be a toggle on/off is even worth it.
Making the effect of the stances their own abilities, even on cooldown, might be the better thing to do.
At the very least, the stance could simply be a mechanic of one of the tanks, it's unique mechanics, and a way to differentiate them a bit more.