Removing Tank Stance Argument

[Renato]

I've been seeing and hearing that a lot of people would like for the tank stance to be removed from the tanks but I'm not really understanding why this would really make that much of a difference when it comes to tanking. On one side, I think it'd be awesome to not have to worry about stance swapping but on the other hand, I think it'd make tanking extremely boring gameplay-wise.

So what is the consensus on this? Do people really want this change or is this a vocal minority? Why would they want this and would it really be beneficial?

[Bright-Flower]

I think it comes down to the dps driven meta. People want it removed to avoid:

Losing damage by having tank stance on when needed.
Or conversely, not wanting to have to deal with tanks sacrificing the defense and enmity boost it gives while they squeeze out more damage.

Personally I'm not much invested either way but the tank I play is PLD where, aside from the damage in/out reduction, the only difference in our oaths is how we build our guage up. So I wouldn't be missing too much gameplay wise if they took it away, or just say made it only affect enmity generation. WAR and DRK I think would need more involved changes.

[FicoJM]

I haven't really seen the argument proposed myself but I can get the reasoning behind it. On PLD I don't think I went into tank stance at all this savage tier, same for the last. Shirk makes threat a non-issue and with how fights are designed, the cooldowns that each tank have are enough to handle the busters. Dungeons and 24 mans would be a challenge to manage without the extra threat tool or mitigation on large pulls so I doubt they'd do it without a major overhaul of each tank's kit.

[Kalise]

The main argument for its removal, is that it is currently a mostly wasted button on the action bar.

It's predominantly only used during Trash in dungeons and for a few attacks on pull of a boss and that's it.

Outside that, it's DPS stance all day.

Thus its removal will be a net gain of one more skill (Due to SE wanting to keep to a specific limit of button usage)

Essentially, as it's already designed in a completely boring way and almost useless as is, there's no reason not to just go all the way and fully delete them from the game, in lieu of a more interesting and useful skill.

Personally, I'd rather they redesign stances, so that it's not DPS Gain vs Defence Gain (With a Damage Loss on top of the Damage Loss from not having the DPS Gain... Seriously SE, what's up with the double dipping on damage reductions?) because, unless they radically change how incoming damage works, no-one will care about the Defence Gain. This isn't even talking about the Damage Loss, which automatically puts it into disfavour because damage is literally the only thing to work on improving as a Tank in the current state of the game.

I'd much rather stances be more in line of conferring gameplay shifts. I.e. "Tank Stance" giving you skills that are reactive to incoming damage. Things like Shield Swipe and Sheltron/TBN. So, you gain DPS from actively mitigating damage. Thus making it ideal for when you're currently in the "MT" or "Active Tank" role. While "DPS Stance" gives more skills that are better when you're not taking damage. This can be things like positional attacks to play more like a mDPS, or it can be utility skills like Cover that allow you to protect other people from damage but requires you to position in a way that wouldn't work while actively tanking.

Thus making it so that there isn't a penalty for being in a particular stance (No passive damage increases or decreases) but more about changing how you play depending on where you need to be at the given point in an encounter - Which would help alleviate some of the inherent 123 ad infinitum spam that plagues Tanks (And is also never changing irregardless of what position you find yourself in...)

[OdinelStarrei]

Hello, thank you for making this topic. I've been meaning to seriously take a position on "tank stance removal" for quite some time. Since early Creator back in HW. I am a somewhat wary supporter of it. This post may be drawn out so...
TL;DR : Tank Stance is a failure conceptually and is the ONLY role mechanic to directly punish it's playerbase for the use of a major role skill.

First, I'd like to discuss how Tank Stance is not optimal in a vast majority of content in the game. There is not a single tankbuster in the entire game where I feel Tank Stance is 100% needed, outside of things like UwU Homing Laser/Mountain Buster or UCoB Flatten/Nael in general(jesus christ). Things that are incredibly high single target tank damage. When it comes to standard savage content, I've taken every tankbuster from all raid bosses this expansion in DPS stance with minimal issue, assuming nothing goes wrong with my CD planning or healers, even with crafted gear, not BiS. I don't want this to be a statement of how good I am, but rather, how I don't see tank stance as a solution to a tank problem(damage intake). At this moment, tank stance is used for aggro generation in my opener for 3 GCDs if I'm pulling, which it does very well. It's also really handy for emergency situations and progression in difficult encounters. But with practice and information from multiple clears, emergencies don't happen often, reducing Tank stance's usefulness the more adept you become. For a personal example of defensive planning being superior over sitting in tank stance:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...VSc/edit#gid=0

That spreadsheet used to be my group's first cooldown map for Final Omega. Outside of low-HP Solo Stack on the WAR(lol Unchained anyway), under no circumstance were me, or my co-tank required to use Tank Stance for Savage Wave Cannon, Solo Stack explosions, Monitors, or post Archive All auto attacks. This is typically how I think about encounters. When something doesn't go to plan, THAT'S when tank stance gets used, to my detriment. If I have everything mapped out, knowing I will survive in DPS stance, where does tank stance fit in? My healers are already healing me to full regardless of how much damage I'm taking, and I trust them, since they trust me to mitigate properly. Once you've solved the defense problem of an encounter that will never change because of how scripted they are, the only thing left for tanks is damage gains. There is no other goal. There can't be under the encounter design. So tank stance is the first thing to go.

Another issue is that tank stance generates so much aggro, in dungeons, I can freely drop it after a single enmity combo/AoE enmity tool, and upkeep the enmity lead with high personal DPS. Not only do I do more damage, I'm also keeping my rotation accurate, and maintaining my resources on ALL tanks. Any bonus enmity does nothing for me, and if a DPS is creeping for some reason, I can just work in an aggro combo due to their high enmity multipliers, rather then wasting a GCD going back into tank stance. (WAR is different of course.)
The same mentality follows in raids, but it's EVEN WORSE, because Shirk is overpowered and makes enmity completely trivial except in fights that have aggro resets. Which is a major component of the issue as a "concept". There is no purpose for aggro management if a single DA Power Slash or Butcher's Block+Equilibrium can be multiplied by tank stance, copied by provoke, and redirected onto a chosen tank at will with shirk. No DPS on the planet can compete with proper shirking.

So, since the positives of tank stance are not really needed in most situations, that means the negatives of tank stance are all the more punishing. The reduction of damage does nothing but extend the encounter, meaning you're going to be taking more damage in the long run, or even worse, hit an enrage and wipe completely. Not only is there a heavy percentage damage decrease, on EVERY tank, using Tank Stance OR aggro combos directly screws with your optimal rotation, further lowering your damage.
On PLD, using Rage Of Halone or Shield Oath can catastrophically misalign your MP management, meaning no Req Holy Spirits when you need them lined up with raid, and gives you a random amount of Oath gauge for Sheltron/Intervention from blocking, rather then the consistent rate under auto attacks from Sword Oath. You also waste a GCD, which on PLD is crippling, and a pain to re-align.
On DRK, using Grit means no Blood Weapon. That's a huge deal, as your MP regen is seriously gutted in ways that boosted Syphon Strike MP cannot compete with. Anything Grit can do, I can do better with a planned CD, and The Blackest Night (my favorite CD). You instead get Blood Price, which is awful, and Souleater HP steal, which should be innate to the skill. Decreased mana means I can't use TBN as much as I want either, lowering my defenses against raidwide AoE, and auto attacks. Tank stance can make up for that, but TBN costs just mana. Grit costs mana, my rotation, a GCD, and Blood Weapon/Delirium usages.
On WAR, Unchained removes the damage penalty, which is FANTASTIC for progression, can't compliment it enough. But using it with no planning means you can miss out on Fell Cleaves, or have to delay your Inner Release, a MASSIVE component of WAR's damage output. WAR is punished the least by it's tank stance(Unchained/Equilibrium), and if PLD/DRK had an equivalent to Unchained in application to their individual job mechanics, you would see less pushback on tank stance overall.

I think it'd make tanking extremely boring gameplay-wise.

I think the exact opposite. It's because tank stance is so punishing that I am FORCED to think of alternate solutions to keep my personal damage as high as possible, rather then pressing the infinite "don't take as much damage" cushion. We're all asking, why are we losing crucial components of our job kits when in tank stance? It does nothing but limit our options, both defensively as a team if used improperly, and offensively as a personal metric for improvement. Within the playerbase, it's now flipped around. Now TANK STANCE is the alternate solution to a situation that we literally have to determine is unwinnable without it, on the fly, such as raid progression, or a potential team wipe. That's engaging, in my opinion, and is where tank stance truly shines, before I immediately turn it off again once the danger has passed.

But I don't think we need tank stance. Think about all those times you've encountered a tank who does nothing but sit in tank stance and spam aggro combos. Is that fun for them? Do they think they are really contributing by doing the absolute basic requirement of their role? Is there any room for advancement if all beginner tanks just see tank stance as mandatory? I'm coming to terms with "player skill differences", but I still would rather SE elevate their players by ripping off the tank stance bandage, and seriously pushing the importance of cooldown management in the Hall of the Novice to promote more active tanking gameplay and personal responsibility for understanding their job. We already have enmity multipliers on aggro combos, shirk exists, so aggro is not a problem, and SE has history of tweaking enmity multipliers for abilities throughout SB. We already don't use tank stance, to avoid relying on it as a crutch for ourselves and the healers, or to push our limits as players, so why even have it at all? Why not have that button do something else? Because of tank stance, the skill floor of tanks is artificially lowered, and teaches the wrong lessons by making them complacent or even worse, think they are performing well, by performing sub-optimally.

I will admit that this will make the early leveling experience even more awkward then it already is, and may throw some people into the deep end head first. But I think if you are taking on the tank role in any MMO, you are signing up for increased responsibility as default. I also realize that this point of view comes from a raider's perspective, and may not be applicable to most casual players, but I still think it's a benefit for both the non-raider and raider audience for stopping this insane tank DPS "argument" we've been having for years now(check this forum, it's STILL happening). This is why the introduction of GUN and the live letter this month are so crucial to me. We're probably going to see a huge upheaval of the role that hasn't been seen since the start of Gordias. A complete redesign is not out of the question, and, based on my experience, the first thing on the chopping block is tank stance, in my opinion. Coming back to this thread in a month will be interesting.

Hopefully I've explained my position in a way that clears up some of the confusion. I started out as wary, but after writing this up, I'm 100%. Delete tank stance.

[Kabooa]

Because most of the tanks who play tank on this game just want to play Melee with Fast Queue times.

[Anienai]

Because most of the tanks who play tank on this game just want to play Melee with Fast Queue times.

I agree with this post.

[Lyth]

There are a few reasons why it would be good to remove tank stances.

Implementation
Stances aren't very well implemented. They're treated as a buff which lasts until you disable it. The problem is that disabling a buff or "clicking it off" only can be activated at the end of your GCD. So while it's technically an off-global action, it often "sticks" if you try to deactivate it too early, giving you the false impression that you've removed it.

This problem happens any time that you swap between a stance and "no stance". It's a problem with Grit, it used to be a problem with pre-Stormblood Cleric Stance, and it used to be a problem with pre-Heavensward Defiance.

The solution, if you want to keep stances, is to always have jobs swap between two or more mutually exclusive stances. This way, you're never directly cancelling a stance. You're always activating a new stance which cancels out the old one. WAR and MNK have the best implementation of this, because they're always switching between two oGCD stances.

If you want your player to use your stances, then you can't punish them for swapping between them. Otherwise, you create an environment in which players are encouraged not to swap.

And this also brings us to the broader issue with tank stances: some jobs have it much worse than others. Some jobs have dps penalties for swapping into stances, either in terms of GCD or resource costs. Others don't. Some jobs have ways of negating the penalties associated with tank stance. Others don't. Removing stances is one of many ways in which you can level the playing field.

One stance to rule them all
The problem with stances is that there is one stance that is considered "always optimal". It's never about finding which stance is "situationally best". It's about maximising 'dps stance' and minimising 'tank stance'. So the solution generally involves figuring out a way to stay in one stance for the entire fight.

If you want to have "stance dancing", then not only do you need a system which gives you the flexibility to freely swap stances (see previous section), but you also need to give the players equally desirable stances to choose from. DPS benefits are out. The instant that one stance has a clear dps advantage, that becomes the preferred stance. But if you're comparing two unrelated benefits, it becomes less clear.

Let's take MNK as an example. Let's take Fists of Fire out of the equation. Let's say that Wind increases your movement speed but increases your knockback distance, and Earth increases your defense and reduces your knockback distance. Movement speed is generally preferable, but there are situations in which you might opt for the added defense or the knockback reduction.

The other way that you can make stances interesting is by having them modify actions based on the active stance. But this only works if there's no clear dps benefit of one stance over the other. This again comes down to trading off situationally beneficial effects that don't provide a clear dps advantage.

Stance-gated abilities
It's worth noting that this last point only applies if players can readily swap between stances. One of the big complaints about DRK this expansion was that a lot of our abilities were gated behind our choice of stance, despite the fact that changing stance is very expensive (both in terms of GCD costs and in terms of MP costs). This was compounded by the fact that DRK had a relative action deficit as a consequence of the role action system and the Stormblood action purge.

Stances can work, if implemented properly, but they definitely aren't suitable for every job.

Cleric Stance
One of the arguments for keeping tank stance is that it allows content difficulty to be adjusted for a variety of player skill levels. Not comfortable with the content? You can use more tank stance. More comfortable? Use less. So instead of the binary "survive" or "die", you end up with a spectrum of players with more or less dps output based on their stance usage.

Back in Heavensward, we had a similar debate over Cleric Stance usage. A lot of experienced healers argued in favour of keeping Cleric Stance as a means of differentiating player skill. And aside from the implementation issue that I discussed in the first section, Cleric Stance was probably a lot less problematic across the board than our tank stances are. There was no cost for swapping. No stance gated actions. It was the same for every healer.

But looking back at Stormblood, I can't say that I've seen many people miss the old Cleric Stance. There are always new challenges, and new ways of optimisation. The world did not fall apart. We moved on. The old system was there for the sake of being there. I suspect tank stances are much the same.

I think the bottom line is this: you can have stances on a tank, if it fits the job thematically. The key elements for doing this is to keep the stances oGCD and free, such that you're always swapping from one stance to another (rather than disabling a stance). You also need to ensure that one stance doesn't have a clear dps or mitigation advantage over the other, such that there are situational benefits to using every stance available. Hotbar space isn't really a big problem - you just need to set it such that pressing the one stance swaps out the hotbar icon so that you only need one slot for two stances (kind of like how Inner Beast/Fell Cleave work).

But I also don't think that stances need to be there on every tank, and in particular, I'd like to see PLD and DRK move away from this system. There are plenty of ways to do what we've been doing without having dedicated stance buttons. I don't need to press a button to declare to the world that I'm starting to tank.

[Jandor]

I'd much rather stances be more in line of conferring gameplay shifts. I.e. "Tank Stance" giving you skills that are reactive to incoming damage. Things like Shield Swipe and Sheltron/TBN. So, you gain DPS from actively mitigating damage. Thus making it ideal for when you're currently in the "MT" or "Active Tank" role. While "DPS Stance" gives more skills that are better when you're not taking damage. This can be things like positional attacks to play more like a mDPS, or it can be utility skills like Cover that allow you to protect other people from damage but requires you to position in a way that wouldn't work while actively tanking.

I'm fine with stances as they are, but this way definitely has the potential to be better than what we've got.

[Liam_Harper]

Because most of the tanks who play tank on this game just want to play Melee with Fast Queue times.

I want stances gone and this is the last thing I want.

In WoW they had no real stances and up until Legion, I'd by far prefer to play a WoW tank than a FF tank. Your rotation, or priority system, actually revolved around mitigation. Your dps was a higher skill ceiling as your mitigation abilities were also your hard hitters, so you had to know when you could blow them and when you needed to hold them. In general most tanks played it safe and the really good tanks were rewarded with the extra utility. Things generally hit like trucks but you had the tools to handle almost anything if you played it well. I miss that.

Tank Stance is simply a passive you turn on, take a big punishment and your rotation is almost unchanged except for a button or two. I fail to see the appeal of it. Tanking in tank stance is the most simplistic gameplay in the entire game.