New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[Wynn_Storm]

I am not claiming that all mechanics originate in the msq. If the mech is brought in on a side dungeon and are repeated in the next expansions msq then clearly the mechanics are being used in the msq. The person's claim is that the msq does nothing to teach people mechanics which is straight manure. Most mechanics are being introduced in the msq that does not mean that it is their debut in the game. My point is that newbies go through dungeons that throw array of mechs at them to the point that they more or less have seen most mechanics (at least on the casual side) once they hit the end of the msq in sb. That does not mean they are experts, it means that they have experienced and started the learning process. That person is claiming otherwise in a lame attempt to demolish the importance of the msq.

Lame attempt? Sorry that what i said hurt your little feelings, but its true what i say.

MSQ does not teach you basic mechanics. It doesn't. You can go ahead and keep on thinking it does, but it doesn't.

You learn via high end dungeon content/trials/raids. That is the reason that people at 70 don't know how to do mechanics.

What they SHOULD do, is update the novice training hall to include a tutorial about all the different types of markers for mechanics. Such as the stack or spread.


Honestly though, you post is full of nothing but air, and you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Anselmet]

MSQ does not teach you basic mechanics.

You learn via high end dungeon content/trials/raids. That is the reason that people at 70 don't know how to do mechanics.

Let me great this straight. New people have to run around 20 different dungeons where they show off different mechanics and new people just drool brain dead and never catch on? Do you hear yourself? Like if being able to do high end content is your standard of knowing mechanics then your argument is even more poor. Does doing high end content make you a better player and teach you to be more weary of mechanics. Yes. But you are being disingenuous if you think that people don't start learning before doing high end content.

Hurt feelings? No. Just poking holes in your argument likes its swiss cheese. But okay new players can't know mechs until they clear some high end content because that totally makes sense. ((most people don't do high end content, most of the game isn't on fire due to this... but okay, okay you clearly are a logical person full of wisdom))

[Wynn_Storm]

Let me great this straight. New people have to run around 20 different dungeons where they show off different mechanics and new people just drool brain dead and never catch on?

That's literally what i am saying because its true. Tough pill to swallow tough guy, but if you play a lot of lvl 70 content you will see people who literally do not understand the basic mechanics.

Does doing high end content make you a better player and teach you to be more weary of mechanics. Yes. But you are being disingenuous if you think that people don't start learning before doing high end content.

I am not being disingenuous, you are just failing to understand the fact that the game doesn't hold your hand and teach you these things. As you get higher and higher some of these mechanics will show in MSQ, but usually after they are presented in side content/ lvl 50/60/70 dungeons.

Hurt feelings? No. Just poking holes in your argument likes its swiss cheese. But okay new players can't know mechs until they clear some high end content because that totally makes sense. ((most people don't do high end content, most of the game isn't on fire due to this... but okay, okay you clearly are a logical person full of wisdom))

Your feelings are obviously hurt from how defensive you are about this. But sure, go ahead and think you are poking holes in my argument. And i never said i was full of wisdom but thanks for the compliment.

[Mrcs5]

That's literally what i am saying because its true. Tough pill to swallow tough guy, but if you play a lot of lvl 70 content you will see people who literally do not understand the basic mechanics.



I am not being disingenuous, you are just failing to understand the fact that the game doesn't hold your hand and teach you these things. As you get higher and higher some of these mechanics will show in MSQ, but usually after they are presented in side content/ lvl 50/60/70 dungeons.



Your feelings are obviously hurt from how defensive you are about this. But sure, go ahead and think you are poking holes in my argument. And i never said i was full of wisdom but thanks for the compliment.

Listen Wynn, What you fail to understand is how the game is generally designed. As a lower level player you go through content and you're basically gleaming the aspects of the game you enjoy more than the rest. If you enjoy a story rich experience? Good on you! watch each cut-scene with precise detail and do what ever side quests you find interesting. Heard that there's a golden saucer and are interested in mini games? your time in the game time is free, as long as you have the gil go and have fun. What's not okay is when you expect the average newer player to disregard what they enjoy and make the overall aspects of the game that they might not enjoy more difficult to trek through so they "Learn the mechanics". Maybe Bobby Jones is a simple guy and every now and then a boss or dungeon gives him some trouble. Let him enjoy having simple leveling/story/minigames content. FF14 has quite a lenient difficulty curve throughout the levels and I'll admit a lot of the earlier level content is dry, that doesn't mean you make a lot of the "Basic Mechanics" More pronounced than they need to be to "Make them better at the game". Personally I'll only play when there's content available that doesn't sum up to "Oh hey! theres new gear 2 item-level stronger than my current gear, time to grind for the next three weeks to get the full set and then rinse and repeat the next patch" By the end of it you as an toxic elitist will have maybe 2-4% more stats than the casual that doesn't spam endgame content. Newer/Casual players play the game to enjoy the parts of it they enjoy. They don't have to be your ideal gamer who devotes as much time as you do. Let them make mistakes, let them be inexperienced, let them play the game the way they want to play it.

[van_arn]

Listen Wynn, What you fail to understand is how the game is generally designed. As a lower level player you go through content and you're basically gleaming the aspects of the game you enjoy more than the rest. If you enjoy a story rich experience? Good on you! watch each cut-scene with precise detail and do what ever side quests you find interesting. Heard that there's a golden saucer and are interested in mini games? your time in the game time is free, as long as you have the gil go and have fun. What's not okay is when you expect the average newer player to disregard what they enjoy and make the overall aspects of the game that they might not enjoy more difficult to trek through so they "Learn the mechanics". Maybe Bobby Jones is a simple guy and every now and then a boss or dungeon gives him some trouble. Let him enjoy having simple leveling/story/minigames content. FF14 has quite a lenient difficulty curve throughout the levels and I'll admit a lot of the earlier level content is dry, that doesn't mean you make a lot of the "Basic Mechanics" More pronounced than they need to be to "Make them better at the game". Personally I'll only play when there's content available that doesn't sum up to "Oh hey! theres new gear 2 item-level stronger than my current gear, time to grind for the next three weeks to get the full set and then rinse and repeat the next patch" By the end of it you as an toxic elitist will have maybe 2-4% more stats than the casual that doesn't spam endgame content. Newer/Casual players play the game to enjoy the parts of it they enjoy. They don't have to be your ideal gamer who devotes as much time as you do. Let them make mistakes, let them be inexperienced, let them play the game the way they want to play it.

Yeah, the first person to call someone toxic is usually the toxic one.

[Mrcs5]

Yeah, the first person to call someone toxic is usually the toxic one.

Well honestly, I never really said I wasn't toxic, but I'm not generally toxic expecting newer players to compensate to make my game experience better.
My toxicity stems from people being unrealistic and unreasonable. In this scenario Wynn is overall unaccepting of newer players making any blunders at all mechanic wise, and I think shes being unrealistic. You can't just make the game harder/more complicated if the mass populous are already enjoying what they enjoy. It would be different if the topic was major flaws of the game's architecture, but we're debating design philosophy.

Also @Van_arn, there was probably a more constructive way you could make your point, preferably by actually contributing to the conversation other than "Gacha" games.

[Anselmet]

That's literally what i am saying because its true. Tough pill to swallow tough guy, but if you play a lot of lvl 70 content you will see people who literally do not understand the basic mechanics.

Of course there are people who do not understand mechanics. There are people who refuse to learn because they are lazy. But I'm someone who actually tries to help new people when I can. Often all I have to say, hey in x dungeon this mech happened this is what is going on now and most of the time they get it. And even then, I am not saying they bloom into perfect players through the msq just that it gives them a base to begin to get better at the game.

You do not need to be a high end player to be a good player and to know basic mechs.

I am not being disingenuous, you are just failing to understand the fact that the game doesn't hold your hand and teach you these things. As you get higher and higher some of these mechanics will show in MSQ, but usually after they are presented in side content/ lvl 50/60/70 dungeons.

And how in the world does this game not hold your hand to learn mechs if it funnels you into dungeons to encounter said mechs. You claim you're not being disingenuous but here we are once again of you not being able to understand that humans aren't rodents and don't need to repeat things ad nauseum to be trained on how to do a mechanic. It gives you a base to work from and once you get to 70 you have knowledge to fall back on and to start getting better at the game. You keep repeating yourself but you're not explaining yourself. So I really do wonder if you're requirement of knowing mechs comes from what type of content your run or how big your numbers are.

Your feelings are obviously hurt from how defensive you are about this. But sure, go ahead and think you are poking holes in my argument. And i never said i was full of wisdom but thanks for the compliment.

Awe did the little high and mighty cat not understand sarcasm? OooOooOooo I'm shook!!!

[van_arn]

Let me great this straight. New people have to run around 20 different dungeons where they show off different mechanics and new people just drool brain dead and never catch on? Do you hear yourself? Like if being able to do high end content is your standard of knowing mechanics then your argument is even more poor. Does doing high end content make you a better player and teach you to be more weary of mechanics. Yes. But you are being disingenuous if you think that people don't start learning before doing high end content.

Hurt feelings? No. Just poking holes in your argument likes its swiss cheese. But okay new players can't know mechs until they clear some high end content because that totally makes sense. ((most people don't do high end content, most of the game isn't on fire due to this... but okay, okay you clearly are a logical person full of wisdom))

I once knew a black mage that made it all the way to Stormblood, without a skip, only for them to give up on Stormblood and roll an alt because the open world mobs were "too hard."

Just about every time a solo instance fight is released in the MSQ there's a crowd of people on the forums complaining that a 4 button fight is too hard: see, the Burn/4.5 pt 2. Heck, I saw complaints from people with multiple 70s that the XV crossover event was too hard, and that had stuff in it anyone that's cleared Stormblood should know already.

Look, I find these failures absolutely hilarious-- but it really goes to show how bad the MSQ as a whole is at teaching players. If the MSQ did this job, these people would've hit a brick wall long before these issues arise. If the MSQ were intended to teach, then solo fights would not offer echo.

Heck, take any df group after 4.0 and you'll probably spot someone that ignored every lesson Stormblood attempted to teach, in dungeons or in solo fights.

PS- when I took that blm through FSOF they died 16 times in one run. Current witnessed high score.

[Anselmet]

I once knew a black mage that made it all the way to Stormblood, without a skip, only for them to give up on Stormblood and roll an alt because the open world mobs were "too hard."

Just about every time a solo instance fight is released in the MSQ there's a crowd of people on the forums complaining that a 4 button fight is too hard: see, the Burn/4.5 pt 2. Heck, I saw complaints from people with multiple 70s that the XV crossover event was too hard, and that had stuff in it anyone that's cleared Stormblood should know already.

Look, I find these failures absolutely hilarious-- but it really goes to show how bad the MSQ as a whole is at teaching players. If the MSQ did this job, these people would've hit a brick wall long before these issues arise. If the MSQ were intended to teach, then solo fights would not offer echo.

Heck, take any df group after 4.0 and you'll probably spot someone that ignored every lesson Stormblood attempted to teach, in dungeons or in solo fights.

PS- when I took that blm through FSOF they died 16 times in one run. Current witnessed high score.

I'm not going to defend and say that the msq dungeons and trials are flawless, I am saying that its a good place to start getting basics down. It's like learning how to add, subtract, multiple etc before going to learn how to do algebra. Its a base to work off of. Of course there are people that fall through the cracks. Some people will catch on and pay attention others it will take longer, but to know mechanics does not mean you have to go learn all the primal exs and savage fights. Does clearing and doing these fights make a better player? Yes, because I am a much better player from doing them. But before I started doing ex/savage I understood mechs and cleared normal trials, normal raids, and dungeons just fine. I had a base to work from. And might I add, I do a lot of casual stuff atm, especially now that we're at the end of the expansion. Most parties are unremarkable others lead me straight to the Tales From the Duty Finder. My point is that it does teach and that that person is wrong to claim you need to do high end to know mechs. That's just asinine.

[van_arn]

I'm not going to defend and say that the msq dungeons and trials are flawless, I am saying that its a good place to start getting basics down. It's like learning how to add, subtract, multiple etc before going to learn how to do algebra. Its a base to work off of. Of course there are people that fall through the cracks. Some people will catch on and pay attention others it will take longer, but to know mechanics does not mean you have to go learn all the primal exs and savage fights. Does clearing and doing these fights make a better player? Yes, because I am a much better player from doing them. But before I started doing ex/savage I understood mechs and cleared normal trials, normal raids, and dungeons just fine. I had a base to work from. And might I add, I do a lot of casual stuff atm, especially now that we're at the end of the expansion. Most parties are unremarkable others lead me straight to the Tales From the Duty Finder. My point is that it does teach and that that person is wrong to claim you need to do high end to know mechs. That's just asinine.

That's fair enough, but I suppose I don't see much of a difference in what these players would learn with or without a MSQ. I'm fine with a MSQ for the current expansion, to be sure-- but I'm not fine with five years of fedexing being required for a new player.

Like I said before, a new player already skips past the 1.0 story, so what's the harm in just skipping that new player to the gates of Heavensward instead. They'd have the option to NG+ the stuff we tell them to "just suffer through, it gets better in Heavensward." Heck, it would be literally impossible for a player to miss their job stone, too!

And I wouldn't have to keep telling sprouts wanting to play a DRK or AST that they have to suffer through 50 levels of a job they don't want to play.

(they never want to play a mch lol)