New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[Alucard135]

It's not clear how this would happen at all. An option MSQ changes nothing for those invested in the story. Your playthrough will be literally identical no matter the state of the MSQ. It seems like you think an optional MSQ requires the removal of lore from the game, but that clearly isn't the case, after all story skip doesn't require SE to remove the story.

I think they mean that you can accidentally do a side quest that previously required MSQ to unlock. Think of something like doing Omega raids before doing HW 3.5 MSQ.

[Shougun]

...Isn't that basically his point, that ARR, HW, and SB, etc. combined are too big at this point to feel like a single game (or, to leave you time to feel like you're really investing in any one of the expansions)?

In my opinion, though, it's more alike to the 3 releases of Starcraft II, where each gave one of the three races' individual campaigns and cumulatively updated the shared multiplayer experience. The stories are separate, but the backstory behind them are far too interlinked to feel wholly invested in any later step without the ones before it.

It's amazing how many of my friends enjoyed the aesthetics and vibes of the game but just couldn't trudge through that ARR MSQ, either dying out before the MSQ could improve, with/around the Mor Dhona rescue mission, or else during the ARR HW-prep slogfest. But at the same time, I cannot rightly recommend that they get jump potions and skip it all, even if that option were free. There's too much to lose there. It's just muddied and muddled down by being stretched too long and with too many irritants.

Eeyy! I never got to say hi after I was gone for a while, so hey man lol. Remember like waaaaay long ago (years) when we had that big ol' thread on ability combos (having abilities work together, sort of a skill/magic burst+ system). I think that was pre-arr haha .

Also yeah you understood what I was saying. If people doubt that was my intention then key wording at "otherwise", showing I was drawing a line myself intentionally (not stating one already existed) because I felt that was better (opinion obviously lol).

Starcraft 2 might have been a better choice, thanks .

I was trying to go more into metaphors to see if that helped anyone since clearly on just the base logic/opinions people are at quite a stand off (felt the thread had gone no where for many pages). Uh.. well the movie metaphor certainly didn't help people lol as I wasn't meaning 2 hour cutscene but seemed to be the takeaway until I corrected it XD. Although on the concept of a slideshow/cutscene party I do think players could get some fun lore while installing the game, at least back when I installed that wasn't taken advantage of.

All boiling down to me that each person can enjoy the game quite differently and while it's fine that some people greatly like it one way I don't think that HAS to be the only approach (so long as that other option doesn't come in and destroy the other choice), because others could love it another way. That if you refuse to give them an option they find reasonable they will leave, which looks like many people are fine with (the stand off doesn't move lol).

While I was trying to address that I also wanted to sneak in a snappier start, new quests for us all, and hopefully change a "fast start" player's mind on the lore by feeding them some of the juicy bits (such that even though they started of the mind of joining late and in a flash of speed their interest is perked up enough they'll pay attention and maybe desire to go back). Rather than telling people "no, unless you pay me the game again" or "how about climbing Everest first" I was hoping to be like "yeah sure sure.. but look at this fancy stuff while you do it.. ooo laaaa..." which might get them to willingly and happily change their mind vs choices that will likely lead to "okay I guess I'll try the newer/different game which has more modern amenities".

I guess to give it one more bad metaphor I imagine it like trying to get a kid to eat something they don't want to. You show them how great it is, depending on age you might explain why it's great, and even offer something else. "Oh I see you want more chicken nuggets, oh those are delicious yes.. but I think those spinach look great too, look at me just eat them all, if you eat another one you can have more chicken nuggets but you better hurry cause I'm going to eat them all! It's making me stronger like Popeye!". Now when the gate is low, say its only 3 spinach you can easily get them to eat it first but when the gate is high (loads and loads of spinach) it's much easier to convince them with a bit more give and take (also now it sounds like I'm overfeeding lol, metaphor and gone dark XD). The hope is one day they actually like the Spinach and if not at least they're capable of having a decent diet (didn't abandon the it all together).

Going to ask those that want msq optional/changed are you wanting it to remain as it is now where its 1 long questline with potential pruning or you asking for it like Tera where once you hit new level new msq pops up regardless of where you at?

Polishing and pruning some stuff into side quests (those types of changes) I'm not opposed to at all (quite welcome actually), though I doubt they can ever crunch down the time between start to current expansion to be "enough" the farther we go along (pruning ARR and if we we're at HW, that'd be enough but that's now history).

I'm for a new start which is a combination of lore background (it can't be perfect like movies can't nail a book perfectly, but it can be enough to avoid something like "who is the warrior of light?" lol), combat basic teaching (including some markers), quick world building, and act as an appetizer to the main dish (like most intros to the game, right before they dash the logo across the screen), new quests for us all, and on top of that it would also behave as (better more grounded) potion (as I don't like what they are and am worried they will become baseline maybe not now but in the future). Which means wherever it (intro) dropped you off that's the MSQ you'd have done so far (timeline wise). With that I'd also like a way for players to know, somewhere in some interface, that they have some missing MSQ (including different intros, perhaps we can encourage vets too) so they can be like ".. I can get three different mounts, 2 different sets from that lala, and lots of gil if I finish that expansion?... .. .. Well now that I'm invested- I suppose I can slowly work it into my schedule".

Why that? Because I think 200+ hours can be too much and 0 hours intro is too little, because I think the further we go the more inevitable a baseline potion will be and I'd rather try to improve (do something a bit different than just a potion as baseline option, I don't like the potion lol) making the experience into something that has more traction to reintegrate these blazing speeds. On top of what I think is inevitable while I don't tend to play the skip story way (I do all the side quests of most games too, like 100% witcher 3 sort of madness) I do know and understand that not everyone feels the same way and will value things differently and I don't mind a game being able to cater a bit to their style at least in some way. Like some people LOVE FFXIV... but all they do is craft and have barely touched the story, skipping everything they can. To me the catering would be occasionally an expansion introduces a new start to the game, so if they wanted they could use it to boost with context and some story carrying forward on an existing character. Like I know a few people who still play but haven't passed HW because for whatever reason they didn't like it, so they just do other things lol, and its probably they might stop at some story again if brought forward but each time we'd be giving them a bigger sandbox with more things to do and each time you're recacluating that "chance" they may actually change their mind on the MSQ part of the game ("oh.. you know I didn't really get in with the theme of Ishgard but omg I LOVE FAIRIES.. and Alphinaud is my favorite now.. I'm going to go back to learn more about him!").

Like I don't really think WoW should be doing their basic potion either... although story grounding is already less important there lol. I'm at the point of "0 investment is nothing, 200 is quite something but not everyone is ready for that breadth of a down payment or literally didn't want". Like early game combat, or a story theme that they weren't into (if someone wanted to come in exclusively because of dragons), if they're coming in because of friends to catch up to, because of a new expansion trailer where they may have quit previously because they didn't like "x" feature/expansion but would buy the new expansion for specifically what's in it. So I think lets get people in on a 2 hour down payment towards what they wanted and direct them through the experience and hopefully integrate them rather than just be like "extra $50 or 200 hours or get out". Although waiting to 7.0 I think would be a bit late as you've lost a number of people who would have loved the game dearly if given a chance to assimilate a bit later in the timeline. 7.0 would be the 5th expansion, which is why I picked it just putting it a parallel to about when WoW made it a default thing.. but FFXIV is also like 2 to 4 times as deep in story so I'd argue if we were going parallel we should lower our number (like at our 5.0 would = their Battle for Azeroth lol).

[Shurrikhan]

Eeyy! I never got to say hi after I was gone for a while, so hey man lol. Remember like waaaaay long ago (years) when we had that big ol' thread on ability combos (having abilities work together, sort of a skill/magic burst+ system). I think that was pre-arr haha.

Starcraft 2 might have been a better choice, thanks.

Welcome back. (I only just came back after a few months due to the free login campaign, myself.) And I remember it well. Yes, it would have been around 1.18 or 1.2? Damn that was a while back now... So many more iterations of those ideas since, but the core's still largely the same, oddly enough.

And I see. I guess we are of the same mind here too, then.

That said, that still leaves us with the question of how best to find a solution for losing players to the ARR experience or else potentially to the lack of investment later on as caused by "experiencing" the game "haphazardly" or out of order, as some others have put it.

[SerLuke]

So to clarify things, what you guys are asking for is either free jump potions or some free option in game to flag the MSQ as complete for dungeon/trial/raid content purposes?

[Physic]

So to clarify things, what you guys are asking for is either free jump potions or some free option in game to flag the MSQ as complete for dungeon/trial/raid content purposes?

basically,

player 1) goes and does msq normally, same exact experience as today

player 2)goes to some npc, or mogstation and uses some item, functionally it would be like an option to use a skip potion to one of the major story break points, combined with forth coming new game plus, players could go back and experience the story on their own terms if they wish.


they wouldnt change anything about future design, past design or such. people who arent looking for it, wont do it.

So how about these two conditions as proposal for a compromise,

1. by default MSQ stays as it is, by default one needs to go through the MSQ and finish the final MSQ trial to get to end game content, if a player does not want this they have an option described in number 2.

2. There is an NPC that can be talked to that would allow the MSQ to be marked as completed for purposes of unlocking content, the player will have to go through a couple warning screens saying this option will impede their enjoyment of the story in certain quests. This option would also allow them to go through the MSQ at their own pace but like I said some of the cut scenes from endgame content might spoil the story if they aren't skipping cut scenes/

Would this be a fair compromise?

yup thats exactly what i'm talking about.

they could refine it slightly by adding a short summary if they wanted to, but thats basically the idea

[SerLuke]

yup thats exactly what i'm talking about.

they could refine it slightly by adding a short summary if they wanted to, but thats basically the idea

In that case I'm fine with it as long as the current story structure remains the same format going forward by default, they want to give people an option to bypass that, that's fine as long as not the default and its not something I or someone else can easily enable by talking to the wrong NPC or something.

[SerLuke]

So how about these two conditions as proposal for a compromise,

1. by default MSQ stays as it is, by default one needs to go through the MSQ and finish the final MSQ trial to get to end game content, if a player does not want this they have an option described in number 2.

2. There is an NPC that can be talked to that would allow the MSQ to be marked as completed for purposes of unlocking content, the player will have to go through a couple warning screens saying this option will impede their enjoyment of the story in certain quests. This option would also allow them to go through the MSQ at their own pace but like I said some of the cut scenes from endgame content might spoil the story if they aren't skipping cut scenes/

Would this be a fair compromise?

[Melichoir]

So how about these two conditions as proposal for a compromise,

1. by default MSQ stays as it is, by default one needs to go through the MSQ and finish the final MSQ trial to get to end game content, if a player does not want this they have an option described in number 2.

2. There is an NPC that can be talked to that would allow the MSQ to be marked as completed for purposes of unlocking content, the player will have to go through a couple warning screens saying this option will impede their enjoyment of the story in certain quests. This option would also allow them to go through the MSQ at their own pace but like I said some of the cut scenes from endgame content might spoil the story if they aren't skipping cut scenes/

Would this be a fair compromise?

The option would be turning the MSQ into a glorified side quest. At that point, the only reason you have access to anything is based on level alone. Which brings up the other issue : If your lvl 20 and do this, now you have access to all content, but youre still not high enough level to do most of it (you cant queue for Shinryu as a level 20, for example). So players can now not do the MSQ but woulds till be forced to do it more or less if they want to level efficiently (MSQ is about the most efficient leveling process due to its exp values.) So it doesnt solve anything for a new player. Theyre still stuck in low level content andw ill end up doing the MSQ anyways for practical reasons. The place where this becomes useful is in 2.1.

Also, what about if they only want to skip certain MSQ? So they want to play HW MSQ, but nto ARR. Are they allowed to pick any MSQ? Or do they have to go through the steps? If they can choose what they do, can they just do every single quest in reverse order for funsies? How does this separate FFXIV from WoW, where they built in you can skip content as long as your level is high enough.

Furthermore, while on paper this shouldnt be a problem, what I personally forsee is how itll become standard practice rather than an exception. New players will be told by veterans "use hte MSQ skip so you can do end game." I say this because this trend is pretty much in every MMO where the story isnt core. This then shifts the focus on FFXIV away from MSQ to completing current end game content, and trains new players that if they dont like something, just skip it. The game would explicitly be teaching this, and would in the end be reinforced by the community at large over time. This would lead to, as I see it, many of the issues WoW has such as rampant elitism, entitlement, less player cohesion and greater toxicity, as the focus of purpose in the game moves towards End game content.

Just because people ask for something doesnt mean its healthy for hte game. I personally think making the entire MSQ optional (a glorified side quest) would end up hurting the game as over time this would be the go to option for most players, and not a side option for the few who dont care.

[Physic]

The option would be turning the MSQ into a glorified side quest. At that point, the only reason you have access to anything is based on level alone. Which brings up the other issue : If your lvl 20 and do this, now you have access to all content, but youre still not high enough level to do most of it (you cant queue for Shinryu as a level 20, for example). So players can now not do the MSQ but woulds till be forced to do it more or less if they want to level efficiently (MSQ is about the most efficient leveling process due to its exp values.) So it doesnt solve anything for a new player. Theyre still stuck in low level content andw ill end up doing the MSQ anyways for practical reasons. The place where this becomes useful is in 2.1.

Also, what about if they only want to skip certain MSQ? So they want to play HW MSQ, but nto ARR. Are they allowed to pick any MSQ? Or do they have to go through the steps? If they can choose what they do, can they just do every single quest in reverse order for funsies? How does this separate FFXIV from WoW, where they built in you can skip content as long as your level is high enough.

Furthermore, while on paper this shouldnt be a problem, what I personally forsee is how itll become standard practice rather than an exception. New players will be told by veterans "use hte MSQ skip so you can do end game." I say this because this trend is pretty much in every MMO where the story isnt core. This then shifts the focus on FFXIV away from MSQ to completing current end game content, and trains new players that if they dont like something, just skip it. The game would explicitly be teaching this, and would in the end be reinforced by the community at large over time. This would lead to, as I see it, many of the issues WoW has such as rampant elitism, entitlement, less player cohesion and greater toxicity, as the focus of purpose in the game moves towards End game content.

Just because people ask for something doesnt mean its healthy for hte game. I personally think making the entire MSQ optional (a glorified side quest) would end up hurting the game as over time this would be the go to option for most players, and not a side option for the few who dont care.

people will still be able to do it when they want a break from grinding. I honestly think when its not holding them back from content, many more people will take time with it, and do it when they feel like story.

msq is not the most effecient leveling, but it is very good for the the amount of effort it requires.

doing dungeons close to your actual level, potd, etc are better


as far people being forced, no not really. The ones who ignore and grind, will be the ones who didnt want to do msq



as far as skipping, id assume theyd have 6 major points with new game plus.
arr, post arr, heavensward, post heavensward, stormblood, post stormblood.

as to how would it be different than WOW? uhh i dont think what defines how ffxiv is different from wow is content locks.

msq is not preventing elitism, toxicity, entitlement and rushers, its just requiring those people to do msq. There is nothing about msq which changes those things

And how is someone saying use msq skip different than telling some one to skip every dialog and cutscene? They can choose how they prefer to progress, through story, or through adventure, or a mix.

[VirusOnline]

The option would be turning the MSQ into a glorified side quest. At that point, the only reason you have access to anything is based on level alone. Which brings up the other issue : If your lvl 20 and do this, now you have access to all content, but youre still not high enough level to do most of it (you cant queue for Shinryu as a level 20, for example). So players can now not do the MSQ but woulds till be forced to do it more or less if they want to level efficiently (MSQ is about the most efficient leveling process due to its exp values.) So it doesnt solve anything for a new player. Theyre still stuck in low level content andw ill end up doing the MSQ anyways for practical reasons. The place where this becomes useful is in 2.1.

Also, what about if they only want to skip certain MSQ? So they want to play HW MSQ, but nto ARR. Are they allowed to pick any MSQ? Or do they have to go through the steps? If they can choose what they do, can they just do every single quest in reverse order for funsies? How does this separate FFXIV from WoW, where they built in you can skip content as long as your level is high enough.

Furthermore, while on paper this shouldnt be a problem, what I personally forsee is how itll become standard practice rather than an exception. New players will be told by veterans "use hte MSQ skip so you can do end game." I say this because this trend is pretty much in every MMO where the story isnt core. This then shifts the focus on FFXIV away from MSQ to completing current end game content, and trains new players that if they dont like something, just skip it. The game would explicitly be teaching this, and would in the end be reinforced by the community at large over time. This would lead to, as I see it, many of the issues WoW has such as rampant elitism, entitlement, less player cohesion and greater toxicity, as the focus of purpose in the game moves towards End game content.

Just because people ask for something doesnt mean its healthy for hte game. I personally think making the entire MSQ optional (a glorified side quest) would end up hurting the game as over time this would be the go to option for most players, and not a side option for the few who dont care.

What people don't realize is that the MSQ creates not just story, lore, and a guide -> it creates gameplay pacing in all aspects of the game. WoW lacks this immensely and it exactly what separates FFXIV from it. Everything you describe after what I bolded is exactly how WoW fell so low. Replace with 'skip to msq' in FFXIV to 'get your heirloom gear and spam dungeons' in WoW and that's the point we arrive at. Zero guidance, zero pacing.