A complaint from a whiny healer

[Ftail]

If you've got a proper tank instead of a paper tank then you just need 1 Excog and your fairy. 1 or 2 aetherflow stacks should be there for Energy Drain.

Being able to use Bane to spread dots is an absolute huge amount of DPS increase, it's not just about Energy Drain. Depending on the mob health and the average DPS of the entire group, it's not completely uncommon to reserve 2 aetherflow stacks for bane and 1 for Excog. Energy Drain is basically just a mana recovery tool on large mob pulls so you can spam Miasma II out more if you're really struggling on mana with constant Miasma II spam.

WAR can ignore the increased enmity generation 'cause they will spam Overpower anyway. The increased HP recovery via healing magic doesn't account for oGCDs. It may increase Embrace from your fairy, but their heals aren't the strongest or make up for the DPS loss from WAR. Phoenicia just pointed out the essential, nothing wrong with it.

Sure the enmity generation isn't important if they can hold aggro. But, taking less damage while the fairy heals more is a huge deal allowing you much more DPS time. Not to mention a prepull aldo will be able to absorb even more DMG before the bubble breaks, and a 20% increase on a crit-aldo pre-pull really makes me <3.

They said 'WAR in Deliverance Decimates mobs under IR (see what I did thur? Hurrdurr).'... because WAR uses Decimate during IR... how can you be feel offended by that?

It wasn't the words "hurr durr" that I took offense to, that phrase just stood out the most. It was the unpleasant general attitude of, "I'm better then you, and you don't know what you're doing" vibe I got from it. Maybe they didn't mean it that way, but that's how it sounded.

So sure, I admit if you are top percentage rattata-tank out of all top percentage rattata-tanks. It is be possible to not drop DPS too much if the tank is savage geared and an experienced individual. Then again those tanks are as rare as unicorns. But, whether or not it'd be a net gain in DPS is highly dependent on many factors such as which dungeon it is, what's the ilvl sync, how many mobs have been aggrod, how hard those mobs hit, ETC. I could see some situations where it'd be a net gain in DPS and others as a loss.
I still stand by the statement I made, and say it's the right call for almost all situations.

It's an overall net loss for the groups DPS if you don't use tanking stance on huge wall to wall mob pulls.

[ArianeEwah]

snip

Yeah, I forgot about Bane. That would be 1 for Excog, 1 for Bane and 1-4 stacks for Energy Drain. Depending on how long the fight drags on I even consider sacrificing my fairy for more mana... since at that point you can't expect any help from your DPS mates if it already takes that long...

About Defiance: Every tank should pull in tank stance, an enhanced Adlo should be a given. If said tank decides to pull in off stance, they should at least know how to migitate and properly hold aggro without any great damage loss. But that is almost impossible unless they strive for that big tank deeps only run, which is not healthy for the whole party - I guess everyone here agreed on that.

That being said, Defiance should indeed be active for every pull, and should only be turned off during the fight, if they know how to not increase the burden on healer or rest of the party.

Which brings me to your OP. The tank you got there was indeed in the wrong. Their gear was not up-to-date, and they didn't know how to mitigate properly. Their decision made your life harder for the worse. I guess they didn't even know their DPS rotation which made the whole point 'out of tank stance' obsolete.

But I want to clarify... that no reasonable person in this sub-forum ever said that 'only bad tanks use tank stance'. And I don't mean times where some might've wrote it as a joke, a troll, sarcasm or because they were lazy, but 'true' arguments.

I am not denying that we (tanks) loathe the current tank stances. We strive to use it as less as possible, still with one crucial fact in mind: Without sacrificing any DPS, and not just for us, but for healers and DPS too.
It's absolutely necessary that tanks have know-how, and skill, as well as good decision-making to be able to utilize DPS- and tank-stance. To weigh up gear differences, dungeon/duty design, skill of the party - in most cases between tank and healer - that's what a true tank is made of.

Unfortunately, there are people who can't or don't want to read between the lines. They reduce whole statements and arguments down to oversimplified sentences like the ones you mentioned in your OP... and I'm sorry that you encountered one of them.
They don't make an effort to learn or actually really read, and stay lazy... on your cost...

But we all have seen DPS not using aoe in trash pulls, healers not dps'in at all and tanks taking tons of damage in tank stance and not holding aggro...

It's not us telling them not to use tank stance, but them interpreting it as such.

[Ftail]

What I stated above isn't ground breaking or divisive and there is a reason I'm not alone with tanks posting they pull wall to wall with tank stance on. Honestly, there's already a problem with tanks not knowing their limits. I can just imagine the new tanks reading this thread and thinking, "A good tank never ever needs to use defiance because my DPS increase is more then the healers lose."

I've seen tanks keep tank stance on or off depending as to how many mobs have been pulled and how hard they are hitting. So it's not like I can claim my statement is always right, because I can't. But, then again it can't be proven wrong either.

Anyway, I made my points. I see no reason to continue to monitor this thread as it's just a circular argument. The only way to "win" this argument would be to do heavy research with parser, using lots of math, which is way more trouble then the argument is worth especially considering all the different factors you need to take into account. You people take care and have a nice day, I'm out... Peace...

[Lyth]

The thing is, your opening post has nothing to do with mass pulls. The tank in your OP did all their trash pulls with tank stance on. Your complaint was because they took it off on the boss, and couldn't dps as much as a result despite no wipes. The goalposts keep shifting.

As far as AoE pulls goes, there's clear data out there on how much damage is capable of doing in dungeons. Unsurprisingly, caster dps is at the very top, and healers tend to be on the lower end of the spectrum. Also, unsurprisingly, when you look at these nerds doing dungeon 'speedruns' at a high level, the tank is out of stance and maximising their dps, the healer is predominantly dpsing, and your caster is melting mob packs with impunity. Everyone is having a good time. Do you know what's the single most important determinant of how safe a mass pull is? Total dps. The shorter the pull lasts, the less likely that something is going to go wrong.

There's a wide spectrum of views on when tanks should or shouldn't use tank stance. As far as dungeons are concerned, the most common thing to do is to use tank stance for big pulls, and take it off for bosses (which is what your tank did). That's not to say that it's the "correct" thing to do. It's just what most tanks tend to be comfortable with. But there is nothing wrong with tanks who use their stances more or less than this, and you can certainly do mass pulls out of stance if you're comfortable with your job.

But the central issue in this thread isn't about when a tank 'ought' to use tank stance. It's not even about the decision-making process involved. It's about a player, on another role, trying to enforce how someone else should tank.

And the answer to that is universally the same.

...

There are two responses to this. First, in DF content, the only variable that you can control is yourself. Playing more defensively might make your healer dps more. Alternatively, they might start paying more attention to their TV show instead. If you're comfortable making big pulls while optimising your dps, you'll generally find that your approach will work for any group regardless of the rest of your team's skill and gear. As I said earlier, the only limitation on a big pull is dps output. So if you can supply that dps yourself, you've solved any potential problems that you might run into. If the rest of your group (or even part of it) is actually good, it's simply a bonus.

Also, you'll generally find that good healers are not really fazed by what's happening with their tank. They're probably dpsing as hard as we are. Everyone is ready to react if something goes wrong, but in the interim, it's all out dps to get through the mobs as fast as possible.

In organised groups, there's actually dialogue between your healer and tank, in which everyone knows which cooldowns get used where. But that sort of discussion is always, always founded on mutual respect. I've seen healers who have tried to control how many STR accessories their tank used back in the day, or how much tank stance their tank should use, and that's always a massive red flag. If you see that happen, just get out of there.

The goal is never to dictate what your teammates should do. It's about helping each other so that you all get the best result. I don't mind having a death because my healer tried to Bene LD at the last second. We'll just refine it on the next few pulls. I'd rather the death than have them Bene four seconds early because they're worried about the repercussions. We encourage each other to play more aggressively, so that we can all maximise our potential (It's also fun playing chicken with invincibility cooldowns). But that only ever works if your teammates aren't trying to control how you play, and vice versa.

That should be the take home message from this thread. I can't tell you how much tank stance to use. Anything that lets you safely use less tank stance is better for you and your team. But don't let someone else order you around. Respect first and foremost.

[Ftail]

Snip...

I couldn't resist taking a peek at the reply, and now I regret it.

First of all there was no "goal post shifting". The conversation we've had the past couple of pages are completely unrelated to the opening post. The original post wasn't complaining about DPS loss on mobs, it was about struggling to keep the tank alive on a boss. I said as much so not only do you accuse me of goal post shifting, but you don't even have the common decency to read the posts I've made. I didn't complain about losing DPS until page 4 when we got off-topic from the main post. Which my first opening post is basically summarized as this: There is no shame in knowing your limits.

My DPS is only a secondary complaint, barely keeping the tank alive would be my #1 issue.

When I made the main post, I was specifically talking about a leveling dungeon where the tank was level 59, the same level as the DPS with me being synced down to level 60. The conversation we've had the past couple of pages were about being level 70 and not using tanking stance on huge mob pulls. I'd rather do a 100 dungeons with a level 70 tank not using tanking stance on large mob pulls and let my DPS drop then another one with the DRK where my only worry is keeping the tank alive. Then being amazed I kept the tank alive blowing all my cooldowns in the process.

I just realized I pulled my quote from a reply to you on the first page, SO YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER. You have an absolutely disgusting personality if you are purposefully and maliciously twisting my comments and ignoring others just so you can "win" an argument instead of having a conversation where we can both learn and improve ourselves. It's been some days so maybe you don't have a "disgusting personality" and instead maybe you just forgot, I highly doubt it though. If you did honestly forget, I apologize for the accusation.

The entire reason I made this thread in the first place wasn't to "enforce" how tanks play their role, it was to encourage more players to not negatively view themselves as a "bad" tank for using tanking stance if they need to for bosses. Like I said earlier it summarizes as this: "There is no shame in knowing your limits."

Anyway, I'm done responding to you and this thread because I know if I look back in here you are just probably going to continue to ignore the posts I've made and try to "win" the argument by putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. Usually I enjoy reading peoples opposing posts and learning from them and then changing my view point when necessary, but with you it's absolutely miserable. So congratulations you "win", I'm leaving now and not looking back this time.

[Lyth]

If your only point is that tanks shouldn't feel bad about using tank stance when they need to, then you'd be in complete agreement with me. I think that I've stated that point explicitly in pretty much every post that I've written in this thread. Even the very best tanks use tank stance in situations where they can't safely predict what the incoming damage will be, such as during progression. Even the tank in your example felt no shame in using tank stance for part of the dungeon (nor should they). You only seemed to take issue when they didn't.

The limits aren't where you say they are. And the only way to find those limits is to push them.

But that's a decision for the individual tank in question to make, based on their own comfort level with the content. I don't personally put up with backseat tanking, nor should anyone else here. I suppose that enforcing my personal boundaries makes me a bad person. But I'm prepared to live with that.

"Serve... Save... Slave... Slay... I've sins aplenty, aye, but regrets? Not so much."