Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Veis_Alveare]

A lot of things

Edit: I do think your post is well thought out and good, I don't mean for this to come out too aggressive I'm just a direct person.

The first issue with your post is the premise that tanks are somehow in much shorter supply than healers. While I'll agree in PF content (so like EX+) it'll generally take longer to get a tank the only roulette I've consistently had to wait more than a second or two on lately (primarily queuing as an AST) is 50/60 which I don't do often. It's been this way for weeks now and going into 5.0 with a new tank and no new healer is likely only going to shift things further in this direction.

I play at varied times of day so I don't think I've just found some kind of sweet spot. If my normal raids/trials/experts/etc are popping instantly that means when I'm queing there is either a tank waiting already or a tank queing at more or less the same time as me. Either one points to a similar population of tanks and healers queing into casual content not some kind of large disparity that would advantage tanks in a dungeon setting.

The second issue is smaller but also more concrete - you don't need a tank for many dungeons while you need a healer or RDM for pretty much everything at cap outside of groups with really strong dps that can burn things down before the tank dies. A tank with no healer will die before a healer with no tank goes OOM from healtanking. Tankbusters in dungeons? I've taken most of them as a WHM, if you're prepared and have some kind of mitigation (DB/a dps utility) you're fine. Even without that most of them won't oneshot you.

I'd recommend you set up a pf or get some friends together and do some dungeons tankless, it's really not bad and kind if drives home the point of how unimportant they are in casual content. At the end of the day tanks are a mitigation tool for the party but with damage so undertuned... well, you know what they say about excess mitigation.

[SaitoHikari]

I believe the run would suffer more if you lost the healer over the tank.
Simply put, healers can spam heal to victory in small pulls while tankless.

I'm not going to say that tanks are useless, obviously they make for a smoother run, as is the current system, but being more convenient doesn't mean necessary.

Yeah, I've successfully tanked Mist Dragon as a Bard.

Losing the healer is definitely worse than losing the tank.

[Physic]

So that run I did of Shisui where we lost our tank after the first boss and went on to clear the dungeon tankless & without a RDM was totally over right?

Not having a tank means you have to be creative on handling the dungeon but is still doable with cooperation & planning. Not having a healer makes the run near impossible without it turning to an ultra slow, Clemency/Vercure spamming fest (and the run is basically stopped dead in its tracks if you don't have a RDM since tank self-heals are extremely limited outside of burst windows). You can say Tanks have more responsibility all you like, but they simply make the run more convenient, not necessary. Healers are far more important to the run than tanks are.

Also, Diversion/threat drops exist. It's quite easy to make a dps a de-facto tank by having one control enmity while the other doesn't.

well, from what i hear, healer/dps party its generally a problem of mana management. But a warrior/pld can actually go completely healerless sustainably.

I will say, if you said you have done it, then it can be done. However, i think that its probably more risky.

[Xtrasweettea]

Edit: I do think your post is well thought out and good, I don't mean for this to come out too aggressive I'm just a direct person.

The first issue with your post is the premise that tanks are somehow in much shorter supply than healers. While I'll agree in PF content (so like EX+) it'll generally take longer to get a tank the only roulette I've consistently had to wait more than a second or two on lately (primarily queuing as an AST) is 50/60 which I don't do often. It's been this way for weeks now and going into 5.0 with a new tank and no new healer is likely only going to shift things further in this direction.

I play at varied times of day so I don't think I've just found some kind of sweet spot. If my normal raids/trials/experts/etc are popping instantly that means when I'm queing there is either a tank waiting already or a tank queing at more or less the same time as me. Either one points to a similar population of tanks and healers queing into casual content not some kind of large disparity that would advantage tanks in a dungeon setting.

The second issue is smaller but also more concrete - you don't need a tank for many dungeons while you need a healer or RDM for pretty much everything at cap outside of groups with really strong dps that can burn things down before the tank dies. A tank with no healer will die before a healer with no tank goes OOM from healtanking. Tankbusters in dungeons? I've taken most of them as a WHM, if you're prepared and have some kind of mitigation (DB/a dps utility) you're fine. Even without that most of them won't oneshot you.

I'd recommend you set up a pf or get some friends together and do some dungeons tankless, it's really not bad and kind if drives home the point of how unimportant they are in casual content. At the end of the day tanks are a mitigation tool for the party but with damage so undertuned... well, you know what they say about excess mitigation.

You don't come out as aggressive. If anything, you come out as very informative.

You are correct, most dungeons can handled without a tank. I've tank dungeons as DD before. The only reason I could even do that was because of how well skilled and cool headed those healers were. There have been times where I tanked in dungeons as tank job where I didn't know why I was even there. I was just there so the party could have a limit break meter. That's how good those people were.

Tanks are great for when we are not at cap. When we are cap we might as well just have a DPS there, since these dungeons are so under-tuned to the gear and healing strength. When we're at cap, as a tank, I am just a Blue DPS that just happens to have higher HP and defenses then the rest of the group.

[Faeona]

Most dungeons take around 20ish minutes to get through. Making bigger pulls does not do much if you party lacks key skills that burn down mobs more quickly. It's always going to come down to party composition and tanks will read that better than healers or DPS.

I remember a Sirensong party that could barely manage a pack of three mobs. DRG, BRD and WHM. They skipped learning some skills or perhaps story skipped as friends to that point. If that three-pack took an eternity, imagine pulling six or more! Whole run was just painful. Took 30 mins.

And time slows for tanks harder than DPS or healers. You know a group is just bad when a boss rotates through their attack script three or four times.

Even if the tank is bad or legitimately too conservative on pulls, kicking them means waiting on a new tank, adding to time you could be finishing said dungeon. Did you want this done quickly or just want to control what others do. Not all tanks set their search to join "in progress" because there's this superstitious notion the group left behind is bad where that usually is not true.

When you roulette, you shouldn't be expecting absolute perfection. If you want something fast and consistent, go with a premade group. Don't impose on random players. Most people want things done fast, but accept others may be learning or have different comfort zones.

[cicatriz313]

Most dungeons take around 20ish minutes to get through. Making bigger pulls does not do much if you party lacks key skills that burn down mobs more quickly. It's always going to come down to party composition and tanks will read that better than healers or DPS.

I remember a Sirensong party that could barely manage a pack of three mobs. DRG, BRD and WHM. They skipped learning some skills or perhaps story skipped as friends to that point. If that three-pack took an eternity, imagine pulling six or more! Whole run was just painful. Took 30 mins.

And time slows for tanks harder than DPS or healers. You know a group is just bad when a boss rotates through their attack script three or four times.

Even if the tank is bad or legitimately too conservative on pulls, kicking them means waiting on a new tank, adding to time you could be finishing said dungeon. Did you want this done quickly or just want to control what others do. Not all tanks set their search to join "in progress" because there's this superstitious notion the group left behind is bad where that usually is not true.

When you roulette, you shouldn't be expecting absolute perfection. If you want something fast and consistent, go with a premade group. Don't impose on random players. Most people want things done fast, but accept others may be learning or have different comfort zones.

Can't "skip learning" aoe skills. Conversation is about end game dungeons, every job has good AoE at end game. /thread

[Ilan]

Most dungeons take around 20ish minutes to get through. Making bigger pulls does not do much if you party lacks key skills that burn down mobs more quickly. It's always going to come down to party composition and tanks will read that better than healers or DPS.

I remember a Sirensong party that could barely manage a pack of three mobs. DRG, BRD and WHM. They skipped learning some skills or perhaps story skipped as friends to that point. If that three-pack took an eternity, imagine pulling six or more! Whole run was just painful. Took 30 mins.

And time slows for tanks harder than DPS or healers. You know a group is just bad when a boss rotates through their attack script three or four times.

Even if the tank is bad or legitimately too conservative on pulls, kicking them means waiting on a new tank, adding to time you could be finishing said dungeon. Did you want this done quickly or just want to control what others do. Not all tanks set their search to join "in progress" because there's this superstitious notion the group left behind is bad where that usually is not true.

When you roulette, you shouldn't be expecting absolute perfection. If you want something fast and consistent, go with a premade group. Don't impose on random players. Most people want things done fast, but accept others may be learning or have different comfort zones.

There is not a single party composition in this game that wouldn't make it worth to pull big. Tanks will also not always read it better that there isn't enough dps for big pulls because most people don't pay attention to how fast the mobs die not tanks, not healers and not dps.

IF your party skipped learning skills, which means they didn't do the job quests, the BRD would've stopped doing said quests before or with level 45 which means he misses a lot of important skills but still has a AOE skill.
The DRG would've stopped doing said quests before 50 which would result in him not learning Dragonfire Dive which is sad but he still has a AOE skill.
The WHM probably never dpsed but he learned every AOE skill without having to do a job quest.

No one here is really expecting big pulls in leveling dungeons because they hit most of the time harder than the level 70 dungeons and because people often have not the necessary gear thanks to the not existing required min ilvl to be able to enter the dungeon.
On max level and in level 70 dungeons every player, who has the required ilvl to enter and did his/her jobquests, is able to put out enough AOE damage to make big pulls worth. The only exceptions are those runs where both dps stay on their single target rotation, if they use one at all which is unlikely.

[swiss_Momo]

(not too fond on bumping this thread, especially since I stopped reading after the first dozen or so pages, but)

With how weak dungeon mobs are, tanks think the run is over when they sit out but it really isn't.

Tankbuster? Eye for an eye or everyone trades raises as if they're mitigation. Since square has tuned damage requirements so low, as long as you can figure out how to win by attrition tanks are only there to make the run less chaotic.

Healtanking arborium hard or various packs of trash is a heck of a lot more fun than just the typical tank and spank. Heck, a ton of healers relish the chaos just because it makes the dungeon less speak and spell.

If a tank drops or is kicked, keep pulling for the heck of it. That's actually one of the easiest ways to lose a bit of respect for the role in normal modes.

I just came out of a Gimlit Dark run were the tank DCd after the 2nd trash pull and we (me + another bard and a scholar) still cleared it easily, even doing almost full wall to wall trash pulls and with only 2 deaths (palisade, ho!)
I also remember clearing Aurum Vale as well as the second half of the Aery without a tank. So yeah, healers are much more important in this regard

[Damien2213]

I've always felt big pulls were fine the higher level dungeon you were in, but when these Tanks try to pull like that in the early dungeons it usually causes more confusion than helps anything. The first story dungeon is a great example. The area where a bunch of enemies are on a deck type area, I see tanks kill most party members at this one particular spot by trying to pull more than the party can handle. These dungeons will always contain a mix of new and experienced players, and I think players need to understand that new players should play at the speed they are comfortable at. Once you get to higher level dungeons this argument really won't matter because people fly through those dungeons and they aren't going to debate with you about the speed, they are just going to go. Just my two cents...

[Aurelius2625]

Healers are worthless, that's why we're getting a tank, while you have one useless healer (WHM), and no new one.

Smdh "Tanks aren't necessary". If you're a casual running dungeons all day, perhaps so, but that's the bare minimum of content in this game. I can't tell you how many times on WAR or PLD that I've literally solo'd the fight because the healer ate it and did just fine. If DRK makes use of Soul Eater in grit with TBN for autos, perhaps it too can do this.

By the same logic, DPS aren't needed in dungeons either. After all, tanks and healers can get by just fine without.

And no, I don't need a healer as DRK. DA Abyssal, TBN, Quietus keep my near immortal, PLD as well.

Anyway, I'm just semi trolling. Just thought it was amusing that so many think so little of tanks.