Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Physic]

Okay then, 95% faster and better than single group pulling.

95% faster is an overstatement. a signifigant portion of most dungeon time is bosses and travel time. Also some dungeons dont allow super large pulls due to stops.

and different jobs vary in the strength and effeciency of thier aoes. Also consider gear/experience, 1 or two wipes can cost 2-3 minutes depending where the wipes occur. a dps death signifigantly reduces dps during weakness and mana effeciency.

i'd say generally you are looking at 20-50% faster, with a possibility of being slower depending how many times it goes wrong.

Most drama tends to occur at wipes though, so id say wipes gives you a 30% chance of player driven drama. slow pulling gives you 5% chance of drama.

I'm guessing the slower players prefer a safer pace with less chance of people yelling at them or each other. Essentially they are risk averse types

[Lilseph]

95% faster is an overstatement. a signifigant portion of most dungeon time is bosses and travel time. Also some dungeons dont allow super large pulls due to stops.

and different jobs vary in the strength and effeciency of thier aoes. Also consider gear/experience, 1 or two wipes can cost 2-3 minutes depending where the wipes occur. a dps death signifigantly reduces dps during weakness and mana effeciency.

i'd say generally you are looking at 20-50% faster, with a possibility of being slower depending how many times it goes wrong.

Most drama tends to occur at wipes though, so id say wipes gives you a 30% chance of player driven drama. slow pulling gives you 5% chance of drama.

I'm guessing the slower players prefer a safer pace with less chance of people yelling at them or each other. Essentially they are risk averse types

Like Cicatriz clarified, I meant the 95% of the dungeons.

Also playing at an accepted level of competency isn't hyper-optimizing. Stop exaggerating just to create a counter-argument. If you knew what we were talking about, you'd understand that it doesn't require that much effort to do so. Almost everyone here stated that they don't want savage or high percentile level of competence so, please, knock it off with that nonsense.

I'll echo what others have said: If they want to relax, they have better options around. I'll refer to my previous point: Like it or not, the majority tends to dictate how the run should go. Kicking for difference of playstyle was a valid option and was a response given by a GM back then. If that changed because of the ToS update, the only way to know it is to ask a GM once again.

Ultimately, I know I won't change your mind and you'll definitely won't change anyone's mind here. While I enjoyed the debate for the most part, I see where certain mindsets come from. It seems like having standards is a crime in this game in the end.

EDIT: The standard nowdays is "gottagofast", with more than 8k instanced runs under my belt, with years of gaming and doing all kind of contents, I can tell you that, for the most part, it's how it works. Creating an alt also showed me that even at entry ilvl, in 70 dungeons, you can mass pull and burn things down efficiently.

Great community, btw.

[AnnaRosa]

Ultimately, I know I won't change your mind and you'll definitely won't change anyone's mind here. While I enjoyed the debate for the most part, I see where certain mindsets come from. It seems like having standards is a crime in this game in the end.

Great community, btw.

It's basic common sense the standards there are preached in such post are personal standards not SE setting such if SE would release a sequence of skill rotation for each job and would state this is the best optimal solution for your way of gaming would totally agree with your post.

In similar situations where players can't even reach a consensus and have different metrics or even two different rotations in same role for the same damage parse (yes in tank jobs too) then can't agree with you, because your ideal optimal rotation might not be to the other player, and we return again to the same pointless post as the beginning.

For you put yourself in a superior level to judge how other player does his or her role yet the same will happen to you and in the end will be you being kicked, to not speak about the contradictory directions I've seen players give to others while they were raiding or doing dungeons to the same roles.

The best you can do to teach others on how they should play their roles is to set yourself as example and demonstrate every time you join a dungeon or a raid or even Savage/ Extreme and so on and explain in a chilled environment inside game that way you will have helped the player, not with pointless and useless dramas in forums those are not effective to teach anyone or even call their attention.

[cicatriz313]

All I was pointing out is that large group pulls aren't absolutely, 100% better/faster than single group pulling, like was being claimed. It's never a good idea to make an absolute claim like some have been doing, because there's no such thing in reality.

And where did you get the idea I was implying that "the stars have to be aligned"? Did you even read the conclusion of that post? Here it is again:

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

Bolded the relevant parts. I never claimed if you just screw one tiny thing up it messes up the whole thing.

Lol you replied to my post that was in response to someone saying aoes don't do more damage in larger pulls which is false as long as you hit more than the single pull which I mean, unless you're absolutely awful is 100% of the time. My point was that based on potency spells will do more damage per gcd in a larger pull.

95% faster is an overstatement. a signifigant portion of most dungeon time is bosses and travel time.

He's saying 95% of runs would be faster doing large pulls vs single pulls which honestly I think is too low. Not that they're 95% faster in time.
Honestly, you guys don't seem to read the posts that posts are quoting before rushing to rebut. Maybe slow down, read the thread, get some insight into the points people are making before making a comment.

[WaterShield]

All I was pointing out is that large group pulls aren't absolutely, 100% better/faster than single group pulling, like was being claimed. It's never a good idea to make an absolute claim like some have been doing, because there's no such thing in reality.

And where did you get the idea I was implying that "the stars have to be aligned"? Did you even read the conclusion of that post? Here it is again:

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

Bolded the relevant parts. I never claimed if you just screw one tiny thing up it messes up the whole thing.

They are absolutely 100% better/faster than single group pulling full stop.

If the group is doing the stuff you are suggesting? Then they will have the same issues with small pulls and will be slow regardless. This is not down to the method used but their lack of basic reading comprehension and the ability to press 1-3 buttons.

[hydralus]

They are absolutely 100% better/faster than single group pulling full stop.

If the group is doing the stuff you are suggesting? Then they will have the same issues with small pulls and will be slow regardless. This is not down to the method used but their lack of basic reading comprehension and the ability to press 1-3 buttons.

Unless we're talking lower level dungeons where people don't even have AoEs to utilize. Doing brayflox with a PLD, WHM, DRG and NIN for example you may as well pull 1 group at a time. Granted those are niche situations.

[WaterShield]

Unless we're talking lower level dungeons where people don't even have AoEs to utilize. Doing brayflox with a PLD, WHM, DRG and NIN for example you may as well pull 1 group at a time. Granted those are niche situations.

We aren't though? This discussion has been hyper focused on endgame dungeons... where things hit like wet noodles? I have even mentioned previously that leveling dungeons are treated differently because things can kill you much easier there.

Edit: post cap

My mistake, then. I do scream inwardly a bit when a tank is sitting at 100% health with a regen and they're pulling 1 pack at a time. Thankfully it has been very rare to run into that.

This is the situation that upsets me, and as it is so rare to run in to, I maintain that it is acceptable to expect that it won't happen.

[hydralus]

We aren't though? This discussion has been hyper focused on endgame dungeons... where things hit like wet noodles? I have even mentioned previously that leveling dungeons are treated differently because things can kill you much easier there.

My mistake, then. I do scream inwardly a bit when a tank is sitting at 100% health with a regen and they're pulling 1 pack at a time. Thankfully it has been very rare to run into that.

[Aramina]

Unless we're talking lower level dungeons where people don't even have AoEs to utilize. Doing brayflox with a PLD, WHM, DRG and NIN for example you may as well pull 1 group at a time. Granted those are niche situations.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is speaking within the context of leveling dungeons. Everything I have seen is focused solely on end-game dungeons.

[Melichoir]

The weakest Roll sets the pace.

Pretty much, if your tank is undergeared/experience, youre more likely to wipe forcing said tank to pull big cause theyll die (even with good healers and DPS.) Smaller more controlled pulls will net you faster runs.

If the healer is undergeared/inexperienced, tank is gonna likely die more often, resulting in wipes and slowing you down.

If the DPS are inexperienced or undergeared, you may not have the DPS to burn down large pulls and suffer a wipe from the fight going on to long.


The idea that any one roll controls the entirety of the pacing is silly. However, it is not up for the group to just decide despite a role. It boils down to seeing whos up to par and whos not, and adjusting the speed as a group. If everyone is geared and good to go, pull fast, hard, and big. If people are inexperienced or undergeared, slow and steady is the pace. Adjust accordingly and find the right pace for the group.