Pet AI Rework Suggestion

[Grimoire-M]

If you've been following the other almost identical thread to this one, I'd said pre-4.0 when BRD got the system for songs that it currently has, that was basically what I felt like SMN should have. Three separate 30 second long phases where you summon the three primals in succession and it changes your output/skills accordingly. Only after summoning all 3 can you do a Demi Bahamut.

To fit SCH into this, instead of having a fairy it would be a temporary stance that changes your heals (and DPS, why not) and adds to them in various ways between the two (or three if they'd like to add a third "fairy" as a result).

To be honest I don't want two Bard Classes. The only mechanical differences that would be left at that point would result in SMN being a more controlled and clunkier version of the same class. I'd rather the Egi remain the way they are and have SE take more of a MCH approach where you have one big burst window with DWT/Rouse and sometimes Bahamut, then take the one upside of what Bard does have over SMN, namely, distinct filler. Instead of phases, leave the Egi as permanent entities that then alter SMN's filler in between each burst window in a way that's appropriate to each of them. For Titan this could be focused on maintaining our DPS while providing him mitigation and sustain. For Ifrit and Garuda I'm less sure, but I'd like their relative DPS to be similar regardless of AoE or single target, with the primary distinction between them remaining their utility in physical or magic comps. One thing I do know is it should involve their pet cooldowns, and rework the Ruin spell line and Tri-Bind in some manner.

[Dyvid]

* Pets now have an Auto Attack

* Primary pet skills no longer have cast times (Wind Blade, Embrace)

* Primary pet skills are cast upon you using a GCD skill

* Secondary pet skills and Enkindle skills are now oGCD

Bonus idea:

* Demi-Bahamut is now summoned via ground targeter and will remain where he is stood unless combat ends or his target moves out of his range (Where he'll move towards them)

The idea being creating more synergy between Summoner/Scholar where their actions directly correlate to their pets dealing more damage (With then SMN getting Ruin IV procs too) - This also allows the balancing of Scholar a bit easier around fairy heals, as it will no longer be auto-healing on its own and will be tied to your GCD heal skills as an additional potency boost.

In addition, secondary skills being oGCD's means that they should be usable even while moving, and in addition, cast times are removed so that skills don't get queued and thus the now oGCD skills can be used at the moment they're pressed.

I believe SCH's Fairies work exactly like this. They changed all the "spells" to Abilities with instant cast time. I don't play SCH much so not sure if this change helped over all or not. The problem with SMN pet AI is the Egi will either stop to cast a spell or wait until it's finished moving before it cast the spell. This is what is making it act clunky and mis cast spells; though I'm not sure why there is a delay when you command the pet to use an ability like Contagion but believe it's because Garuda is "casting" a spell rather than using an instant cast ability.

Demi-Bahamut has a similar issue where he follows you around and won't cast anything until he stops. I believe my Rework D-Bahamut would also fix this problem.

[JunseiKei]

So you're saying Embrace will have insta-cast? This would have to be turned in to an ability, and because of that no doubt it will be nerfed in potency (just like Whispering Dawn) to reflect the change or Physick would be buffed.

That would be unnecessary. What was being proposed is Embrace would activate on a GCD from the SCH anyway. On top of that, there are still cooldowns, even with instantly activating spells/weaponskills. It just means that the fairies can heal while you tell them to move (following you or placing them), but there would still be a 2 to 3 second cooldown. It doesn't need to be turned into an ability. Turning it into an ability removes ALL defensively oriented buffs from effecting them: Rouse, Fey Illumination, Nature's Minne, Mantra, Convalescence, Defiance or triggering the occasional Divine Veil for you. That unto itself is enough of a nerf to not warrant a potency reduction, in my opinion.

I wouldn't mind this as long as offensive GCD skills on SCH also triggered Embrace to be cast. Maybe something like your target's target.

[Kurando]

That would be unnecessary. What was being proposed is Embrace would activate on a GCD from the SCH anyway.....

Ok so what would be the GCDs you would use to activate Embrace? Now the first one at get that actually can target an ally is Lustrate at lvl 50, so up until that level the fairy would have no way to be commanded to use Embrace if we base it around this idea. What about multiple target GCDs such as Idomability and Sacred Soil, how do you choose who to target with Embrace in this situation, because currently you can not. What if the SCH has no GCDs available for whatever reason, that would mean no fairy Embrace.

We could use PvP SCH as a better example on how this works. When summoned, Eos's Embrace is insta-cast (and it's still a spell) but it only goes off when you use an healing action on a target, but considering there are no multiple target heals to use in this mode it's quite easy to specify the intended target. However considering the abilities and jobs are balanced much different in PvP, it's not too easy to replicate how it works in PvE.

As for the defensive oriented buff debate (Rouse, Fey Illum, Mantra etc), considering Whispering Dawn benefited from all these effects when it was a spell means there is nothing to stop Embrace being sent down the same route. Buff Physick (closer to Cure, Benefic), nerf Embrace and there you have SCH taking advantage of the heal buffs instead of the pet. Also the fairy doesn't really suffering from movement issues much anyway (unlike SMN pets), so being able insta-cast just doesn't seem like it's necessary in comparison..

[Kalise]

Ok so what would be the GCDs you would use to activate Embrace?

Physick

Adloquium

Now the first one at get that actually can target an ally is Lustrate at lvl 50

Lustrate is an oGCD

What about multiple target GCDs such as Idomability and Sacred Soil, how do you choose who to target with Embrace in this situation, because currently you can not.

Firstly, when using an AoE, Fairy would simply do standard AI things. Heal the person with the lowest percentage HP.

Secondly, Indomitability and Sacred Soil are both oGCDs

What if the SCH has no GCDs available for whatever reason, that would mean no fairy Embrace.

You can't ever not have Physick or Adlo available, unless you're out of MP.

We could use PvP SCH as a better example on how this works. When summoned, Eos's Embrace is insta-cast (and it's still a spell) but it only goes off when you use an healing action on a target

That's literally how I'm suggesting it works.

Also the fairy doesn't really suffering from movement issues much anyway (unlike SMN pets), so being able insta-cast just doesn't seem like it's necessary in comparison..

It's not just movement issues that this is designed to fix, but also ability queuing, which is made infinitely worse by having cast time skills. With Fairy being the worst because Embrace is 2 second cast time (Compared to Garuda-Egi's Wind Blade at 1 second cast time)

[Kurando]

snip)

Yeah I noticed my oGCD and GCD got confusing there...

Though if the fairy can cast Embrace for free without any command, why would being forced to use a GCD (or oGCD) be any better? Also several players choose to Macro the fairy so it only uses Embrace when they use a particular action (such as Physick), so they have actually that degree of control you are suggesting here apart from the spell casting time

The fairy doesn't suffer as bad of issues with ability queuing though (again unlike SMN pets). If your fairy is casting Embrace, they will cancel it and use anything else if you command it (such as Whispering, or Fey etc), this was fixed several patches ago. Wind Blade on the other hand cannot be cancelled once it's casting which is what causes issues with Contagion, Devotion etc.

[Kalise]

Though if the fairy can cast Embrace for free without any command, why would being forced to use a GCD (or oGCD) be any better?

It would create a situation where the Fairy is more controlled.

Also, it would make it easier to balance, given that Yoshi has been talking about how the fairy providing free heals is causing some balance issues with healers.

With the fairy now being locked to GCD heals outside of Fey Union, it makes it much easier to adjust the strength of the Fairy and her actions. Without having to worry about SCH having a passive smart HoT.

Also several players choose to Macro the fairy so it only uses Embrace when they use a particular action (such as Physick), so they have actually that degres of control you are suggesting here apart from the spell casting time

Well, that and they have to put up with the janky mechanics that are Macros in this game.

The fairy doesn't suffer as bad of issues with ability queuing though (again unlike SMN pets). If your fairy is casting Embrace, they will cancel it and use anything else if you command it, this was fixed several patches ago. Wind Blade on the other hand cannot be cancelled once it's casting which is what causes issues with Contagion, Devotion etc.

Well, I've noticed some delays in casting fairy skills, while being stood still.

So unless my Fairy is running around of her own volition, it doesn't seem like the spell cancelling AI is working perfectly.

To say nothing about if this is the case, well, then it's a buff because instead of missing out on that Embrace cast... You'd get it and the ability you wanted to use too.

[Llugen]

To be honest I don't want two Bard Classes.

I think you missed the part where I said I'd thought this up before BRD existed in its current iteration. Go me. I don't think anyone wants two extremely similar copies of jobs.. *looks at melee classes* .... oh.

The reason I'm more inclined toward phases than "permanent entities" is because I guess I want to feel like I have to cycle through the summons to use their power and then they are expended rather than just being basically set-and-forget. I brought up BRD specifically because that way, as you pointed out as well, you could prioritize different summons for what it is that's needed at the moment, single target vs aoe vs speed, or something of the like.


If the Egi were to stay as they currently are but changed to function similarly to Demi Bahamut, I'd be reasonably satisfied. They would just need to change it so you can hardcast and still get the attack rather than being forced to constantly use Ruin II.

[Grimoire-M]

I think you missed the part where I said I'd thought this up before BRD existed in its current iteration. Go me. I don't think anyone wants two extremely similar copies of jobs.. *looks at melee classes* .... oh.

Whether you did or not doesn't matter to me. I'd probably still feel the same way in Heavensward because I generally prefer offering solutions that require less development time based on SE's track record of putting the bare minimum effort into any changes they make, and Egi phases are substantially different from how the current Egi operate. That said, melee DPS are also not copies of one another. Combos are certainly oversaturated but the current melee DPS are not overly homogenized because of them. If you want to use that argument you'd want to point to the tanks not Melee DPS, but even in that respect they've changed quite a bit. You could argue RDM's a combo class with flexibility akin to Monk purely because of Dualcast and that MCH is a combo class that's gated by RNG too. I agree that combos have been played out at this point. Regardless, I feel you're missing the point of what I'm getting at. Borrowing aspects that are core to differentiating these two classes beyond their surface comparisons is exactly what I want to avoid.

SMN and BRD are already similar at a base level in the same way that combo classes are similar, they're DPS with priority rotations focused around maintaining damage over time abilities. However, many of their minor nuances are directly comparable too. Pets are akin to Auto Attacks, Ruin IV's proc is analogous to Refulgent Arrow. Iron Jaws saves GCDs for Heavyshot much like Tri-Disaster's reset mechanic saves GCDs for Ruin II/III. SB BRD's reliance on the crit buff stacking meta specifically exploits snapshotting, a mechanic that SMN also relied on for most of its DPS in HW. HW Bard had Feint, which at the time was an instant-cast Cross class weaponskill that allowed them to bypass their half-cast effect from Minuet at the time at the cost of DPS, similar to Ruin II on SMN now. SMN's aetherflow/aethertrail lockouts and Bahamut/Rouse lockouts also force them into a janky phase-like rotation too, only with none of the distinct filler Bard has in its song phases.

At a core level where Bard has distinguished itself from Summoner is a heavy focus on RNG procs, while Summoner leans into the consistency of their pets and Aetherflow as a flexible resource to manage. Summoner briefly gained additional resource management in Heavensward with Ruin III draining their MP for extra burst, something that was lost in the Stormblood transition while Bard got Song phases in order to fully flesh out and rework how they operate. I think we can agree Bowmage in Heavensward wasn't a good idea the same way Ruin III became a mistake at SB launch, but everyone at the time calling out the reason why it was bad: It made Bard feel like a caster. I feel Egi Phases and even the Aetherflow Lockouts are similarly bad for SMN as a whole, not only for their jank, but because it feels like Bard in a bad way.

The reason I'm more inclined toward phases than "permanent entities" is because I guess I want to feel like I have to cycle through the summons to use their power and then they are expended rather than just being basically set-and-forget. I brought up BRD specifically because that way, as you pointed out as well, you could prioritize different summons for what it is that's needed at the moment, single target vs aoe vs speed, or something of the like.

I maintain it's a bad idea to focus on phases because nothing requires you to juggle Egi phases to make the Egi themselves interesting. If you look at my proposals for SMN changes as of late, the goal of all the cooldown consolidation and lockout/DWT bonus removals is to free up time and damage potential in order for the Egi themselves to actually shine with any additions they get in Shadowbringers. We don't need to borrow from anything Bard does in order to do that. We can rely on what Arcanist brings to make SMN unique. In this case, I'd lean in on what made Ruin III work in HW without directly copying it, and what makes Aetherflow so engaging. Flexible resource management.

If the Egi were to stay as they currently are but changed to function similarly to Demi Bahamut, I'd be reasonably satisfied. They would just need to change it so you can hardcast and still get the attack rather than being forced to constantly use Ruin II.

I agree with the intent of what you're saying here but not your proposed solution. Fixing hardcasting to proc at the beginning of a cast (which is basically what you're getting at from what I can tell) doesn't fix the fact you'd want to be single weaving on them all the time and only makes the melee pets worse in the process. The problem with Bahamut's AI is he's literally just the Egi without their auto attack requirement. He's basically using the default Heel AI still, which I talked about probably being what the devs did in another post in this thread. That's why he's so inconsistent in practice. If you copy that over to the Egi they'll auto once every 3s on your cast and then run back and forth between you and your target repeatedly. The Egi are more consistent because of their auto spells in their current state. I'd prefer that consistency over his current functionality being given a choice between the two in particular.

That doesn't mean I think the Egi don't need a rework or think Bahamut has nothing to offer, but for all intents and purposes I'd consider Bahamut worse. In terms of the dev pipeline required to fix both of them I'd rather SE improve his AI and stick with the current pets till he's properly functioning, then pull his AI down to them. Getting him right first will make fixing the Egi easier in the long run. To me that's the more efficient way to go about getting the Summoner we're after. In the meantime I can see reworking the current pet abilities to have different effects, and then try to balance them out against one another.

The pipedream of egis and Demi-egis that respond to casts and basically function as turrets until the enemy is out of their range is still there, of course, just tempered with my own subjective analysis of their current nonsense.

[Llugen]

Tanks are also melee classes. Just throwing that out there.