Know What Class I Wish For? Geomancer

[Lauront]

Or, at least the ones in Kugane. It's a trade port city, after all.

[Shougun]

Just like everytime Time Mage gets brought up.

"AST quests mentions them, so just play AST!"

But in all seriousness, Conjurers pretty much in their entirety are Geomancers. So unless Square wants to do another class split similar to SMN and SCH, or essentially make a second CNJ that for no real reason doesn't share level, it's not gonna happen.

The thing is your power source doesn't make you exclusively one thing. Red mage uses two already known sources, we're fine. Geomancer as per lore uses directional and the elements. Obviously conjurer has access to elements but due to 1.0/2.0 lore/gameplay changes they dont use the full spectrum (and their method of manipulation doesn't need to be the only one, like how primal keep gaining variations on how they exist).

Full spectrum + directional is enough to not be conjurer, like two sources of magic is enough for red mage to stand on their own (not even adding the fact that they could give Geomancer more things to further differentiate, like Red Mage). Or to make a real life example both a rocket scientist and a bridge designer use physics but the end results are massively different (similar origins does not necessitate similar ends).

These lore excuses to place a firm no are flimsy in reality, like with how people said summoner can't have bigger egi because lore but now we have demi (as they added lore to make it happen). All it could take is adding some more bits that expand Geo in a desirable direction for them. Or simply all they have to do if they don't like Hingan lore of geomancer is introduce a geomancer from another area even.

I'm a bit sad that something so pliable (lore) is used like some set in stone can never be added to code of rules. I think fairly recently I saw some of the similar can never be done because lore used for Tonberry and the beastmen system but funnily enough now we have dwarves in that system.

Lore is only a problem when lacking the desire and or creativity to make a solution (lore found a way to make a Goobbue fly, I think enough is said lol). Geomancer is not literally "just" a conjurer, comparing how it plays to it's past iterations they are not the same which is one of the most important comparisons. Is the gameplay the same or not is priority question, not if they use similar colors (Red Mage technically throws some stone around too, that wasn't an issue). They use elements sure but many jobs in FF share some sort of power source or a few spell concepts (things that can be expanded upon in new lore, like masters at wind and water because they're at a port city and around the sea (ty for the point @Lauront ) but in actuality they can/do use "blah"). The more important issue is if something can add gameplay value, and of course Geomancer can be- it may need more lore added to it but so does any new job added to the game or when new levels are added at expansion.

[Eloah]

I'm totally for a GEO. Inf act, my dreams for 6.0 is to release three jobs. GEO as the healer, Chemist as another ranged DPS, and BLU as the fourth caster.

While I personally want a GEO tank, why would you want Chemist as a DPS? Any game that has/uses Chemist/Alchemist/Salve-Maker has it more oriented towards healing. In fact AST was supposed to be Chemist but because the Mix command wasn't working as intended they adjusted it to the current card system. The way a Chemist would act as a DPS would be too similar to MCH most likely. That's probably the reason MCH was chosen when the original Chemist idea split into AST and a gun wielder.

[MagiusNecros]

Geomancer will be a limited job where you are out solo "healing the land". And maybe change it from being a barren wasteland to barren greenlands.

[Tlachtga]

Geomancer is such a boring job in general, and its really similar to what we already have.

I'd rather a healer job that is vastly different.

[Eloah]

If implimented correctly GEO could be really interesting. I picture them as a DoT Shield Tank, using the elements and the elemental cycle to its fullest. And their classic bell weapon would be another blunt damage dealer.

[Kazrah]

The thing is your power source doesn't make you exclusively one thing. Red mage uses two already known sources, we're fine.

Yes and no. Despite drawing from similar elements, the power source for Red Mages is technically themselves, while Black and White Mages use the aether around them as their power source. It's the same reason for the lore argument as to why Red Magic is supposedly weaker than Black or White Magic.

That being said, it's not just the basic lore that is an issue for Geomancer in the "GEO v. CNJ" debate, but it's to the point where they are carbon copies of each other. While Conjury claims to be all elements, it's effectively the three "natural" elements of earth, wind and water: the exact same as Geomancer. What Conjurers call "elementals", Geomancers call "spirits". Even the spellcasting is effectively identical albeit a couple of different words and a different choice of spellcasting focus. At the end of the day, I look at how Geomancer is portrayed in this game--not in any past game, JUST this one single game--and ask if it's different enough from Conjurer, and with all that I've seen, the answer is a big fat pile of "no".

Yes, you can ramble on about how annoying lore can be, but it's that lore--not the lore in any past game, JUST the lore in this one single game--that cements everything together and provides a reason for everything in the game world to exist in that game world. That's why I've been suggesting what I have been about Geomancer in that it should be like a master of magnetism or otherwise something unlike anything we've actually seen and even play off the original inspiration of the job (the Hingan Geomancers) as the Ishgardian Astrologians in that they'd be uppity snob characters putting the protagonist down who have no idea what they're doing.

[Shougun]

Yes and no. Despite drawing from similar elements, the power source for Red Mages is technically themselves, while Black and White Mages use the aether around them as their power source. It's the same reason for the lore argument as to why Red Magic is supposedly weaker than Black or White Magic.

That being said, it's not just the basic lore that is an issue for Geomancer in the "GEO v. CNJ" debate, but it's to the point where they are carbon copies of each other. While Conjury claims to be all elements, it's effectively the three "natural" elements of earth, wind and water: the exact same as Geomancer. What Conjurers call "elementals", Geomancers call "spirits". Even the spellcasting is effectively identical albeit a couple of different words and a different choice of spellcasting focus. At the end of the day, I look at how Geomancer is portrayed in this game--not in any past game, JUST this one single game--and ask if it's different enough from Conjurer, and with all that I've seen, the answer is a big fat pile of "no".

Yes, you can ramble on about how annoying lore can be, but it's that lore--not the lore in any past game, JUST the lore in this one single game--that cements everything together and provides a reason for everything in the game world to exist in that game world. That's why I've been suggesting what I have been about Geomancer in that it should be like a master of magnetism or otherwise something unlike anything we've actually seen and even play off the original inspiration of the job (the Hingan Geomancers) as the Ishgardian Astrologians in that they'd be uppity snob characters putting the protagonist down who have no idea what they're doing.

In way you explained what I meant. Lore can be added to. You suggest adding some part about magnetism to help add detail, now it's different enough. As before you felt it was too similar, and may certainly be, yet you found a solution to the issue at hand . My point was using lore to saying no possible Geo is a very weak no because not only has it been proven wrong (multiple times now) but the producer of the game has said game (play) comes first. Which is to say Yoshi never said lore isn't important but more like we should do the fun things we like and we can work on the lore to make that happen. Of course we shouldn't just accept any 180 twist (retcon are not good) but Oda/Koji and team is creative enough to make whatever needs to be to happen to make it work in nearly all cases. On Red Mage / Black / White magic I used them simply to show using similar magics doesn't actually stop a job from existing as they found a way to make it work, so even say Geomancer uses similar elements they could play quite differently (and as you show you can also add new details to make it more interesting/differentiated).

If Geo needs something special to be more unique then it can be added, that was my only point (and you exampled that in response ). "Lore no" are too common and should very rarely be used, imo (actually people felt insulted when lore was used as a no for male viera/female hrothgar and were happier just to hear it was about being too expensive to make two genders two races). Like as I said about summoner how some on the forums used a lore lock too but clearly lore adapted to make larger pet possible (demi-bahamut). Or how we can never have a beast race because lore or no non-beast race to be used in the beastmen tribe system, both faced a "lore no". Yet now we have both, as they found a way. So to me lore isn't annoying because its neat, grows, and is flexible to the needs of the game- just hearing people shut down ideas as if lore is inflexible and cannot grow makes me sad (and is specifically untrue) as it takes away from developing conversations. Better to discuss if it could be fun or how to make it work and what new lore we may need, and the good ideas that could spawn from that conversation- good things like how you added magnetism concepts.

On your point about elements / magnetism, I think adding the other elements is not an issue (add to the lore if need be) but I do like your idea of magnetism. Could be fun to play with that deeper than other jobs have toyed with the concept.

[ScorpioShirica]

If you play the AST quests, geomancers feature pretty heavily in the stormblood quests. I'm not sure how they'd separate them out from being a separate school of astrology which is basically all they are at the moment.

[Shougun]

If you play the AST quests, geomancers feature pretty heavily in the stormblood quests. I'm not sure how they'd separate them out from being a separate school of astrology which is basically all they are at the moment.

100% you have to think about that when going about it but also that does not prevent SE from being able to do something with it (like our gender locks or summoner egi).

Actually let's take Kazrah's idea of making magnetism a big part of Geomancer, how could we do that fairly smoothly?

Well we just had a new dimension open up- what if in that dimension we had a Geomancer related job that had discovered the ability to manipulate gravity/magnetism at such a level that makes other jobs pale in comparison (these guys are amazing at it), then one of the mages from that other dimension travel over to ours to find interesting elemental variant of a type of directional magic they use and they get together to influence each other (much like AST and GEO did). Not only new skill sets for our side but could also introduce new skills sets as they work together (like if we use super compressed magnetism and earth magic we get a sort of magnetic fire, now Geo has fire spells!). Here we could also use the new outsider as a source of civil war in the Hingan Geomancer school too even, adding to some fun lore value to doing the quests (your school is falling apart and later you have to help it rebuild while fending off an opposing faction of Geomancy). Side note Gravity is a AST skill so of course the names will have to be Geo related, like how Red Mage can use fire but it isn't simply given a black mage fire name (I mention gravity here because magnetism on an enemy to the ground would probably have the feeling of being a gravity based spell).

Okay so now you say "well enough but what about all that AST/GEO content it'll not be right... right?", which I would say there is a sort of chronological order to the quest SE has already done/accepted in the game (time/echo have given a lot of quests leeway). For example you can help prepare the meal that Nanamo has in a MSQ that you've already completed (as part of another job's quest). GEO the job would start after the first opening of another shard, while GEO of Eorzea starts before that - it's not an issue. Of course having to wait for the shard concept to be available would push the job's starting level to like level 70 but I suppose that's only an issue depending on when the job is introduced. Also I want to say this was only one very quick possible way to make them work without retcon (get the lore team at the table to solve this and I'm sure they'll find something that checks all the boxes they need, if they wanted to/were told to at least lol).

Back with summoner people would say "no way you can have a fancy egi because of lore" which was true that there was lore that explained why our egi were small and controlled, but the issue was people using "lore no" didn't account that you can always add more lore if you want to make something work. Or maybe in their defense simply meant "right now" but of course when adding new spells/jobs I think it is better to think future forward as in that time new lore will exist (and so the issue of lore becomes no issue as every time you get a new job / new skills that lore is added to the game anyways).

To spin this on a greater issue that's more important to people. The lore in the past which was removed (shifted) and the lore currently for Viera and Hrothgar have been used for genderlocks. If you accept that lore is fixed and unchanging, that we can never add something to make Geomancer work, then I suppose it should follow that we should never unlock Miqote, Highlander, Roegadyn, Viera, or Hrothgar. Or alternatively if you see that "well we just need some more story that spins it in the right way" to unlock the genders, then it should follow that given enough spin you could do the same to Geomancer. That's why I said a lore lock/no is only as strong as one's lack of desire or creativity to solve it, and having seen what the lore team has done so far.. They do not lack creativity to make something happen if the team wants to do something. Meaning the lore team has our backs when it comes to evolution of the game (although we should still strive to avoid retcon, that's not so good).