things I like to see for all tanks

[Campi]

These two statements dont go hand in hand.

A good tank is one that knows when to turn on tank stance and when to turn it off.

This includes turning it on to help a dps/healer, instead of staying in dps stance, losing threat, or dying and blaming the healer. There is a large array of players in this game, and I've seen numerous tanks refusing to swap stances and blame the party, wearing ultimate or savage weapons, get replaced, and then the party 1 shots the fight they were doing. I have seen it very very often.

I've seen healers let a dps die to cast another dps spell, tanks lose threat to a dps, and the dps die, I have seen countless issues such as these very very often. Being in dps stance does not, absolutely does not make you a good player at all.

This mentality of "being in dps stance makes me a good player" is very damaging to the success of the overall playerbase.

You perfectly showed, that you don't understand how this game works^^
Maybe you should first get into Extreme Trials, Savage Raids and Ultimate Fights and then you will overthink your message.

"DPS-Stance" don't make you to a good player, i've never said that.
but only staying in tank-stance spaming 123 make you to a bad tank. I've seen a lot of such players, just looking like a bot. Tank-Stance, 123 and no Def-CDs used.

A good Tank takes far more less dmg, then you bad tank staying 100% in tank-stance.
If you know what to do, you never punish you healer with not using tank-stance.

I've cleared every content and in 99% you just need tank-stance for the pull to gain more aggro. That's all :shrug:


I just can't understand why ppl want a boring playstyle for tanks.
Maybe this is just the wrong game for you? There are many other games, where you can spam brainless aggroskills and do nothing else o:

[Tint]

I've cleared every content and in 99% you just need tank-stance for the pull to gain more aggro. That's all :shrug:

Sure, you don't need tank stance to clear the content per se - but you maybe will need it depending on your party. When you have good healers and DDs who know what they are doing you can sit in dps stance all day long. But when the healer is struggling and the DDs don't know what an enmity reduction tool is what are you doing then? Just wipe and blame the party for playing bad? Or do you pick up the slack by turning the tank stance on to get the extra defense to help the healers out and the extra enmity to stay ahead of the DDs?

Maybe you should read again what Daniolaut said. He never said you should be 100% in tank stance, he said a good tank adapts to the situation.

[ReiMakoto]

Sure, you don't need tank stance to clear the content per se - but you maybe will need it depending on your party. When you have good healers and DDs who know what they are doing you can sit in dps stance all day long. But when the healer is struggling and the DDs don't know what an enmity reduction tool is what are you doing then? Just wipe and blame the party for playing bad? Or do you pick up the slack by turning the tank stance on to get the extra defense to help the healers out and the extra enmity to stay ahead of the DDs?

Maybe you should read again what Daniolaut said. He never said you should be 100% in tank stance, he said a good tank adapts to the situation.

A good tank should never have to adapt to a situation. A good tank will be rotating cds/ generating emnity enough that they would never have to stance dance/ very rarely stance dance.

[Daniolaut]

You perfectly showed, that you don't understand how this game works^^
Maybe you should first get into Extreme Trials, Savage Raids and Ultimate Fights and then you will overthink your message.

"DPS-Stance" don't make you to a good player, i've never said that.
but only staying in tank-stance spaming 123 make you to a bad tank. I've seen a lot of such players, just looking like a bot. Tank-Stance, 123 and no Def-CDs used.

A good Tank takes far more less dmg, then you bad tank staying 100% in tank-stance.
If you know what to do, you never punish you healer with not using tank-stance.

I've cleared every content and in 99% you just need tank-stance for the pull to gain more aggro. That's all :shrug:


I just can't understand why ppl want a boring playstyle for tanks.
Maybe this is just the wrong game for you? There are many other games, where you can spam brainless aggroskills and do nothing else o:

How did I show I know nothing about the game?

Where have I not cleared savage, extreme trials?

You didnt teach me anything or show me anything or prove yourself right. You only said "123 tank stance" I know very few tanks who do that, conversely know many more tanks who refuse to use tank stance and cause wipe after wipe.

Sure, i'm using tank-stance when i have to, but these situations are very rare.


The Problem is, that the OP sees two different kinds of Tanks
- The ones who use Tank-stance
- The ones who use "Dmg-Stance"

Both Stances belong to a Tank. Neither the Stance, nor the Rotation makes you to a Tank or DPS
A good Player use his full Skillset and deals as much Dmg as possible to help clear the Fight faster, which means less healing is needed.
If you can play your Job well, you won't have any Aggro-Issues. There is no need for spaming Aggro-Combo and camping in Tank-Stance.

It's not directly what Daniolaut said, but what the OP wants.
I like playing this Game, and i don't want, that it will be changed to braindead playstyle, only because bad players want, that all others should be playing bad too. :shrug:

It's not directly what Daniolaut said, but what the OP wants.
I like playing this Game, and i don't want, that it will be changed to braindead playstyle, only because bad players want, that all others should be playing bad too. :shrug:

I beg your pardon?

Do tell me, how does it make one a "good player" to spam dps combo in off tank stance, while letting a dps, whom is doing more damage rip threat, when they are using diversion.

Or letting a healer rip threat after they have used lucid, because their co'healer doesnt know how and when to shield/heal.

I would honestly like to know since I"m "directly not knowledgable" and "clearly dont know anything" even though I've been playing since 2012...


No one here is saying you should post in tank stance spamming enmity combos. No one. We are saying, its sometimes intelligent to turn on tank stance to alleviate problems. and the mindset, of pretending you're a dps and never trying to maintain threat, letting people die, and not using defensive cooldowns, is terrible.



Lastly. Due to this mindset of "staying in off tank stance 100% no matter what" and people not trying to learn how to tank, losing threat in Sastasha, so on so forth, Square-Enix was "forced" to increase enmity gains 3 times over, making keeping threat a complete joke for those who actually are skilled at it. So your "fear of things being mindnumbingly easy" is already a reality for experienced tanks.

A good tank should never have to adapt to a situation. A good tank will be rotating cds/ generating emnity enough that they would never have to stance dance/ very rarely stance dance.

How does a "good tank not adjust" when doing a fight, say seiryu extreme or sephirot extreme, and not pick up adds, and a dps whom has to use diverion on the pull, and its not ready/back up for adds, and they rip threat and die cause the tank doesnt "stance dance." How does it make them good to let the dps die.

Or, when a WHM or Diurnal sect AST gets paired with a shield healer, who doesnt know how to shield, and then tops party off, when Heals over time is ticking and they are doing dps attacks and rip threat? And dont sit there and say "thats the healers fault" because the co'healer doesnt know how to heal...

point is, you said "good tanks never need to adjust" which is just not true. Bad tanks never adjust.

[ReiMakoto]

How does a "good tank not adjust" when doing a fight, say seiryu extreme or sephirot extreme, and not pick up adds, and a dps whom has to use diverion on the pull, and its not ready/back up for adds, and they rip threat and die cause the tank doesnt "stance dance." How does it make them good to let the dps die.

Or, when a WHM or Diurnal sect AST gets paired with a shield healer, who doesnt know how to shield, and then tops party off, when Heals over time is ticking and they are doing dps attacks and rip threat? And dont sit there and say "thats the healers fault" because the co'healer doesnt know how to heal...

point is, you said "good tanks never need to adjust" which is just not true. Bad tanks never adjust.

Okay now read what i said again, i said a good tank should never have to adjust by tank stancing. A good tank wiol be able to grab the adds and stay in dps stance and keep threat. Yeah bad tanks will never adjust, a good tank will never need to. Also your healer example, ye sorry bud that is the healers fault, you saying "dont say its the healers fault" doesnt change that. Healers have a powerful aggro tool so should not be ripping aggro easily at all

[ReiMakoto]

You seem to have a lot of ideas of how this game should play or be changed when you seem to have little understanding of how it currently is played (see the healer threads they've made). The only thing I can think of is you don't actually like how this game plays and want to overhaul it, at which point why not play a different game if you don't enjoy the one you're currently playing.

[OdinelStarrei]

Hi, welcome to my TED talk about your suggestions.

1. "Low Blow" and "Interject" cannot be removed or retooled from the game, as many fights (A3S, O3S, Seiryu EX etc etc) require adds to be stunned or silenced. What I would like to personally happen is for both the actions to be rolled into one "Disable" role action that will do both a stun and a silence (incase the enemy is immune to one) to save on hotbar space. If you are using stuns to prevent yourself from dying to auto attacks, something has gone wrong with gear or pressing cooldowns. Bosses can't be stunned either, so outside of specific enemies with untelegraphed "tankbusters" like the gorillas in Ala Mhigo and Castrum Abania, I struggle to think of legitimate stun opportunities that aren't tied to an actual mechanic.

To answer your question, my role is tank, but my job is to kill everything as quickly as possible so it stops hitting me.
Provoke cannot be changed either, because tank swapping and proper enmity management would be impossible. This could actually be a productive conversation on the merits/demerits of Shirk, and how it has completely trivialized enmity as a tank mechanic in every fight except Ultimate and O4S, but that wasn't brought up in this post.
I have some concerns with making Awareness traited into the tank stance. Not only will you be removing a cooldown that I specifically save in my timeline for mechanics or situations where I need to move a lot, (Godka trines anyone?) relying only on instants from my healers, you've also punished DRK and PLD indirectly by forcing them into tank stance, wasting a GCD and mana, to avoid dying to things like Tera Slash in Shinryu EX, Critical Hit from O3S, or Zurvan's adds. Awareness is a good CD the way it is now, it complements ALL tanks despite their different mitigation kits in a way they all can appreciate and I honestly hope it's kept into 5.0.

2. Tanks need DPS abilities. Not only do tanks need them to do MSQ content, in ACTUAL team content, tanks contribute a massive amount to the overall raid DPS. If you start neglecting the DPS side of tanks, you've done nothing but lower the skill ceiling for what a competent tank can bring to an encounter, boring good players who care about their contribution to the team, while STILL having subpar tanks be terrible. If they ALREADY aren't pressing their cooldowns, why do you think adding MORE mitigation options will make them use cooldowns? NO ONE who actually tanks at even a mediocre level pulls mobs without tank stance/aggro plan. If they are, they do not understand why, and are only following what they see other players doing, instead of actually learning to play the role correctly. You can shut these players down by explaining what tank stance is actually for and how the game works, or failing that, just vote kicking them. Or SE can fix this by implementing better training tools in-game instead of conjecture in forums or the Novice Network.


At the core, you are not complaining about tank design. You are complaining about the tank players you keep getting stuck with, which are two entirely different topics. I am also wondering what the point is in insulting other players in this post.
People who are complaining about tank and healer DPS should instead be complaining about how the game deals damage to the party and overall encounter design. More on this later.

3. I also disagree with giving all tanks gap closers. WAR/DRK have minor opportunity costs to their gap closers. PLD has a unique niche in being able to negate the knockback, and also cover one party member, such as BRD/MCH, who lack the knockback prevention. PLD is also the only tank that has a ranged component to it's kit that isn't aggro related in Holy Spirit, further lessening the punishment for being far away (Will admit, outside of Req, this is not a good idea unless planned with a Refresh and/or a Sheltron). But this is a minor point in the grand scheme, if PLD got one, I'd say "cool, nice, more uptime"

Tanks should not get an AoE stun, because in raid, it's useless, and in dungeons, that particular role is already dominated by WHM (Holy) and AST (CO,which they are already using to extend regens/cards/lucid) . Even SCH compensates from the lack of a stun with Emrabces and Whispering Dawn passive healing, while also bringing insane damage via DoTs and Miasma II. Dungeons are inherently unbalanced, so I avoid theorizing abilities around them.

4. No. PLD's niche is cover and party mitigation/shielding. All tanks have utility, but PLD's is cover and PoA, and it should remain PLD exclusive. It's not only part of the identity of the job, if you add cover-based abilities to every tank, and you add party shields to every tank, you've homogenized the role and killed PLD. Why would anyone bring PLD, with it's inferior damage, when DRK and WAR can cover each other and provide raid buffs instead? You've also indirectly nerfed every 8man tank buster in the game by 20%, because unless that buster was being invuln'd, why would you choose to take it without a Cover? Just use your cooldowns on autoattacks, leave the actual tankbuster to the cotank, who can just Cover + TBN or Thrill of Battle, and get that free Rampart mitigation on top.

Closing thoughts: I would like everyone who says "Tanks should be tanks, and not DPS" to go into Eureka and fight enemies at +5 level on tank. Or, they can be the MT in a Arsenal run. Then they will see how mind-numbing it is. Doing nothing but aggro combos, not allowed to do your rotation or optimize, just sit there for ten minutes and let the boss hit you while the DPS have actual engaging gameplay. Because the consequence for not doing so is getting the DPS or healer splattered into the ground from 35K auto attacks. Is that what people want in DUNGEONS? Taking a UCoB level of damage constantly so the tanks need to be afraid of trash pulls, the healers aren't allowed to do anything else but spam Cure II because of incoming damage, and the DPS still don't use AoE or Goad each other? If you make it so that the more skilled players are struggling in dungeon/leveling content because of what would have to change about encounters to encourage tank stance, what's going to happen to undergeared or casual players? Your content will suddenly be above your skill floor, which should be reserved for EX and Savage, not MSQ and optional dungeons. And sometimes we can't even meet that floor because of the skill and gear discrepancy. Sadu/Magnai solo duty and the recent MSQ sword DPS check for example.

You need to consider how your suggestions not only affect the role, but also the game as a cohesive unit. Particularly regarding balance in dungeons/raids, because PLD would not exist in it's current form if the team balanced for dungeons, as it is awful in there.To do a change in tanking, we need a fundamental break down of boss outgoing damage, healing potency, and an enrage check overhaul. And you'll be left with a tank/healing relationship that's been around for a little over two decades now in other games. I don't think taking away one of the things that makes FFXIV unique, it's spin on the holy trinity of tank/DPS/healer, is helpful for the game long term.

Just because your players are awful at mass pulling dungeons, does not mean all tanks are awful and we need an upheaval of the role. If I'm taking a solo stack explosion in O12S Hello World without being topped, or actually, ANY damage I'm aware can cause significant danger to the party, or if I'm noticing my healers are struggling, you better believe I'm throwing the training wheels back on. Because that's what tank stance is. A situational solution to a crisis or aggro generation in the first few GCDs. Tank stance is a tool to be used. It is NOT the entire job.

I didn't even really talk about how healers also contribute to this in a significant way with oGCDs and regens, and that'd probably be ANOTHER 8000 characters long.

"Any monkey can spam aggro combos and keep hate. You should strive to be better then that." -direct quote from the person I learned tanking from, seems apt here.
sorry for long post

[Nolagamer]

Get rid of tanking and dps stances. When it is preferred for tanks to be in dps stance rather than tank stance then there is something fundamentally wrong with the game design.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Get rid of tanking and dps stances. When it is preferred for tanks to be in dps stance rather than tank stance then there is something fundamentally wrong with the game design.

Tbh, stance aren't really tank stance and DPS stance as much as a defensive stance and offensive stance, the monikers tank/ DPS stance is one the players decided to call as such.
There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with this game, it's just a more modern approach to the tank/healer/ damage dealer trinity. An approach that makes both tanks and healers considerably more enjoyable than spamming 1 2 3 or being nothing more than a healbot.

[AleXwern]

Get rid of tanking and dps stances. When it is preferred for tanks to be in dps stance rather than tank stance then there is something fundamentally wrong with the game design.

After reading the whole thing that Odinel wrote and then this, just made me frustrated. Not mad, frustrated.

What does this supposed "tank stance" bring to a grand scheme of things? Does it make gameplay more engaging? Does it help me clear content and push raid performance? Does it make look back at my raid footage and plan my cooldowns in most RNG-proof manner as possible? Is there any way of improving oneself now that aggro is absolute non-issue ever and passive stance cuts the need for mitigation?
Even just simply put, is it/does it feel rewarding? Everyone can think that on their own.

I played PLD during ARR and looking back, sitting in Shield Oath and spamming RoH, because there was no other alternatives, just sounds so distant and mindbogglingly numb. I just can't understand why that should be the preferred way to tanking or why should we go back to it.

Tank stance, or rather "defensive stance", is training wheels and emergency button. It's there for newbies to learn the ropes and veterans to go "oh crap, time to eat penalty" when Vengeance isn't up for Savage Wave Cannon. That's how I prefer it: it's not something I want to actively use but it's there when I need it. It's something I can lean towards when everything else goes south.